t.Pluto

Minderwiz

PS on Scorpio

Seeing I had to get Lehman's book off the shelf to find the authorities for Saturn and death, I also checked for Scorpio and death - no references were given (nor were there any for disasters). The majority of references for death, were to the 8th House followed by Saturn. Other references were to Mars (violent death) and to Jupiter (non violent death). Yes the book only relates to traditional rulerships (by affinity) but my point was that death isn't traditionally associated with Scorpio, even though it is by some modern writers.

Ronia

Minderwiz said:
You noticed

I always notice.

Minderwiz said:
If you re-read my original you will see that I did not attribute Saturn's role to Greek or Roman mythology and I described the figure with the scythe as a medieval representation.

You don't need to specifically refer to mythology, I do. because I see that they used these names of these gods and it annoys me when they are used inappropriately. The astrologers I mean. As about the image, it's not medieval, you can see Cronus with the scythe on early Greek pottery. That in mediaval times it was still used is the usual fate of most archetypal symbols till today. It doesn't change the fact that in this case, to me, Saturn is amidst some total mish-mash.

Minderwiz said:
I did say that Saturn was the traditional planet of death but then the tradition extended up to the seventeenth Century. Lilly describes Saturnian occupations as including church sextons and the bearers of dead corpses. Saturn is the planet of limit and death is the limit to mortal life.

Um... I'll call this a bit of a stretch, Minderwiz.

Now, we can twist and play like that for much longer but to the best of my knowledge, Saturn is supposed to be about effort (discipline) and time (patience), mostly. And while we may stretch even this to see the end of time for a human, truth is, as they used these gods to represent these planets to rule these signs, that Saturn had nothing to do with death.

And least of all, to rule over it. Or to cause it, except when, as Time, the time just came but then came one other god to do the necessary things.

Minderwiz said:
Both Ptolemy and Al Biruni attribute the rulership of Death to Saturn, as does John Gadbury - see Lee Lehman 'The Book of Rulerships'

Well, seems I'll have to forever disagree with those noble men, hopefully they will forgive me.

However, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt because they had only these seven planets to work with. Had they known better and more, they wouldn't have needed to assign such absurd rulerships.

Ronia

Minderwiz said:
Seeing I had to get Lehman's book off the shelf to find the authorities for Saturn and death, I also checked for Scorpio and death - no references were given (nor were there any for disasters). The majority of references for death, were to the 8th House followed by Saturn. Other references were to Mars (violent death) and to Jupiter (non violent death). Yes the book only relates to traditional rulerships (by affinity) but my point was that death isn't traditionally associated with Scorpio, even though it is by some modern writers.

But it's an 8th house issue and to me 8th is the house of Scorpio, I'm sorry.

Minderwiz

Ronia said:
But it's an 8th house issue and to me 8th is the house of Scorpio, I'm sorry.

You are forgiven

Ronia

I wanted to share some thoughts here, this time based on real life.

I am coming out (I already did actually) of a solar year with Pluto conjunct the Ascendant and Saturn conjunct the MC and my natal (and solar) Sun. Thus, Pluto and Saturn were the two planets on solar return angles and more so, they were in mutual reception and with exchanged natal positions. When I was reading my solar return last year this time, I knew it was going to be a big year (Saturn rules my natal Asc thus beginnings and was conjunct the solar MS and the solar return Sun was there too) with huge changes (Pluto natally rules the MC and was conjunct the solar return Asc). Each time I see a solar return Sun in the 10th, especially close to the MC, I think of years which we remember and when we look back we say "ah, this year!" Also, when the natal angles are repeated in the solar return as was this time (as signs not as degrees).

What I can say now is that indeed it was an important year and Saturn on the MC made the whole climate very heavy with responsibility. A year of big decisions. I was many times feeling like couldn't go any further but I kept persisting which I think is key to Saturn's gifts. Much discipline and persistence were required, nothing really happened overnight but somehow everything was working out at the end. Since I see the MC as the peak of a mountain, Saturn made the whole clombing a long and difficult exercise but the view from every top was magnificent.

Pluto on the Asc made the changes of life importance. As usual with Pluto, it all included closing many doors, some permanently. I can't really say it has been painful for me due to some details in my natal chart which make changes quite desireable and due to the fact that I'm used to Pluto's energy having him ruling my Sun, but I did feel like I was becoming another person (I don't neglect here Saturn on the Sun as he contributed greatly to the "being alone in the world and taking all the responsibility"), on a very deep emotional level, very personal. I faced some quite scary perceptions, thoughts, beliefs. I also had some experiences of more mystic nature. I now know things happen and exist. I believed before, now I know. On a very practical level, I changed my life from A to Z - people, places, attitude. Typical Pluto change - uprooting and cutting, pruning, burning and burrying. Then replanting.

I hope this helps.