L'Empereur and Le Pape

Just starting this thread after a recommendation from Diana.

I said that I wondered if people would be intimidated by La Pape and D said that he equalled blessings, whereas 'L'Empereour' could be preceived by people as intimidating.

I think I got my wires crossed somehow but it is something interesting to discuss. I would be very interested to know more about the 'blessings' of the fives; from my tarot upbringing from the Rider Waite, as example, all fives depict struggles of some kind - loss in the cups, ill health and poverty in the pentacles, a battle in the wands and a defeat in the swords - all pictures I am not particularly comfortable with.

The idea of blessings, as related to 'La Pape' seems to make more sense. Would like to discuss this more; especially as my draw in the group yesterday was a '5'.

Best wishes

Yabs

Being a 5 myself, I feel qualified to answer



Five is about freedom and variety. Five says, "Do what you will". And therein lies the struggle and the conflict. Comfort and blessings come from the freedom. How many people do you know that always exercise their freedom so as to benefit themselves? How many who help others? The key to 5 is dedication to a high power. The Pope is the bridge between the physical world and the divine. There is an authority in The Pope, people can be intimidated, particularly when they prefer to behave in their own best interest.

So I can see the 5 of Batons in our reading for obstacles for the group as being the need for the group to dedicate itself to actions that will help the forums as a whole. If the group decides it's best interest is outside the larger community, then surely conflict will develop to the point of self destruction.

The word "Pape" comes from the Latin "papa" (first recorded in the French language in the middle of the 11th Century).

Interesting then that the word "papa" is used in French and sometimes in English for a "Daddy".

Daddys are not stern. Emperors are stern.

There are two fathers in The Tarot. IIII and V. (Actually, there are three fathers. The Hermit is a father too, but of another nature.) See, they even follow each other sequentially.

First... we are taught where our limits are. The Emperor teaches us how to behave in society. What the laws are. He teaches us good manners. He teaches us about boundaries and frontiers. He teaches us of material matters.

Then Le Pape comes along... and yes, he speaks to us of our freedom. He speaks to us of spiritual matters. He teaches us to rise up out of pure materiality into the realms of the spirit. He shows us that we are not limited by our material body. He is also our father... but our Spiritual father. Look at the card... can you not see that he is blessing?

The Pope is sometimes called The Pontiff. This word stems from the same etymology as the "bridge". Le Pape is the bridge between the material world and the spiritual world.

Fathers love their children. L'Empereur loves us, and so does Le Pape. But they have different functions.

On my web-site is written: "True freedom does not mean making arbitrary and more or less uninformed decisions. Freedom means putting into practice the laws of the universe. This concept is common to all traditional teachings, including the Tarot. The wisdom of the Middle Ages, which has been transmitted to us through the Tarot of Marseilles, was «Servire Deo, Libertas»."

Le Pape is the Arcanum that holds this promise in the palm of its hand.

5 is the number of Man Upright (see Da Vinci's famous painting).

(P.S. Forget the RWS meanings. Most of the time there is little logic behind them. If you can find their logic, use it. If you can't, discard it. Don't believe stuff unless you can prove it - especially when it comes to self-development.)

(P.P.S. Please forget about the Roman Catholic Pope Vatican Pope. We are talking about the POPE IN THE TAROT OF MARSEILLES. We're not in a theological discussion about the merits or non-merits of the Head of the Roman Catholic Church.)

Imagine number four; better yet, a four-sided geometrical figure. It is about steadiness and stability, isn’t it? A square, or its three-dimensional application, a cube, is a perfect image of materiality in its highest expression, entirely developed, absolutely manifested. Number four is indeed the royal number of matter, in my own, personal view. And a cube is also a good symbol for a throne – if you ignore the fact that the power of the ruler, or king, or Emperor, comes from outside.

Now, you want to make this cube, or square, evolve. You want to make something different out of it; to continue developing this figure. Where do you begin? There is no “disequilibrium” in it, no “loose end” you can pull to make it change. When you had a triangle, you could make it rotate on it in order to achieve the square; but try to rotate a square figure, and you will get… another square figure. So, something must come from the outside. Or, interestingly, from the inside, which is the same… isn’t God in everything?

When you start to consider what is “outside” of a cube or a square, you find number five. Imagine this exterior point above the square, as the presence of something higher, as a blessing, as the Holy Ghost, whatever. You can now draw a geometrical figure that resembles a house with a pointed roof, or a hexagonal figure. What you have here is the silhouette of a temple, or the House of God. This is the cubic stone, or matter, spiritualized, the cube transformed by a higher vibration. It is also The Pope.

This point that was “outside” was in fact “inside” the cube. If you don’t see how, try to find its centre by drawing a line that connects its opposite angles. There it was! The cube, or the square, had its own “point of disequilibrium” (the mark of God) in itself. The Emperor has The Pope somewhere inside. Every man does.

Historically, the Pope and the Emperor represented two opposing parties. The Holy Roman Emperor depicted on IIII frequently quarrelled with the Pope; northern Italy, in particular, was their battleground. This state of affairs lasted until at least 1495, when the Holy Roman Empire reorganised itself as a German confederation; it still had claims to much of Lombardy, though.

The Pope's territories cut a sort of diagonal swath through central Italy, from Bologna and Ravenna on the east side to Rome on the west. People in northern Italy were in the focus of this conflict, and various principalities and civic republics had to pick sides as allies or try to stay out of the fighting.

The Emperor and the Pope began as allies; the Emperor governed the political and military sphere, and his realm was supposed to extend to all Christians, as the Pope similarly ruled the religious sphere. This kind of arrangement never works out, and the system broke down fairly quickly. During the time the Tarot images were being collected, though, I think it's safe to say that there was at best a cold war, and often open hostility, between Pope and Emperor.

The idea that Pope and Emperor are hostile to each other's claims can be seen in their complements on the next level; the Emperor links to XIIII, Temperance, while the Pope links to XV, the Devil. The Emperor governs and moderates and suppresses conflict by force of arms. The Pope is in the business of forgiving sins. The Emperor is a hanging judge; the Pope, a bleeding heart. In Christian theological terms, the Emperor is Law; the Pope is Grace.

ihcoyc said:

the Emperor links to XIIII, Temperance, while the Pope links to XV, the Devil.

Click to expand...

It is very interesting to look at the Pape V and Le Diable XV side-by-side and see the connections and similarities and dissimilarities.

Transitional Players

L'Empereur sits very gingerly on his uneasy throne,
and the pillars behind Le Pape come up a bit short.

*

Mars & Aries

L'Empereur (Daleth) is the embodiment of Mars, and
Mars is exalted in Capricorn (Ayin): Le Maison Dieu.

Le Pape (He) as Aries, signifies the exaltation of the Sun
in that sign, and the fall of Saturn (Taw) ~ funny Le Fol.

The Sun has its fall in Libra (Lamedh) ~ whence Le Pendu
may be seen as this and the exaltation of Saturn there.

I mean, why do you think L'Hermite (Teth), the sign of Leo,
is hiding his light? His return shall be in Le Monde (Shin)!

Diana said:

Look at the card... can you not see that he is blessing?

Click to expand...

I don't have anything intelligent to add, but I just wanted to show this picture . Do you see the woman at the right? She's giving her blessings to the knight and is using the same gesture as Le Pape! You could probably find tons of pictures like that, but I just thought it was cool .

Spoon

I have had difficulties with L'Empereur vs Le Pape too. In some other post somewhere, I said my issue was about Le Pape seeming stable, not representing the disruption of the 5...but it finally became clear when I started to think of it like this: Le Pape is the fifth element (spirit) which disrupts the stability of L'Empereur's material empire. 5's from the Epic: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/BA/PT/m5.html

spoonbender said:

I don't have anything intelligent to add, but I just wanted to show this picture . Do you see the woman at the right? She's giving her blessings to the knight and is using the same gesture as Le Pape!

Click to expand...

The knight who is winning seems to belong to the woman in red, judging from the colour of the token he wears on his helmet.

She, by contrast, seems to be mostly embarassed that he's going out in public in that ridiculous thing again.

But the woman on the left consoles her. "But you must get great reception. . ."

er, uh, where was I. . . . .