Cards as "hieroglyphs"

Ross G Caldwell

John Meador said:
pp.519-527 &ff have some interesting tidbits regarding hieroglyphs ca 16th c.
Postel knew coptic but whether he studied hieroglyphs while he was in Egypt I haven't determined. If he had encountered them, it would have been irresistible for him. p. 522 concerns John Dee & de Vigenere's observations.

-John

Thanks John. There is a good clean PDF copy of de Vigenere at gallica -
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k73371g

Ross
 

kwaw

Ross G Caldwell said:
The Plato Thoth myth was not widely known.

Phaedo translated in the 12th century by Henricus Aristipuss; was again translated by Bruni in the first decade of the 15th century, his first of several translations of Plato at the request of Salutati (who was disappointed with the translation of Aristippuss), "in the fall of 1405 Niccoli sent Bruni from Florence an illuminated presentation copy of the translation, to which Bruni added a flattering preface and dedication to the Pope...The same pattern of publicaton - private circulation among friends in Florence, then dedication to a pope - was followed by Bruni also in the case of the Gorgias. (There are also a couple of manuscripts without the flattering preface to the Pope meant for French markets with a distaste for extravagant praises of the rival Pope).* I have yet to ascertain whether his translation of (fragments of) Phaedrus in 1924 includes the passages on Thoth.

Kwaw

*Plato in the Italian Renaissance by James Hankins, p.49
 

Ross G Caldwell

kwaw said:
I have yet to ascertain whether his translation of (fragments of) Phaedrus in 1924 includes the passages on Thoth.
*Plato in the Italian Renaissance by James Hankins, p.49

1924!!! LOL

Thanks for reminding me again of Hankins. He gives a list of Bruni's omitted passages of the Phaedrus (volume 1, pp. 68-69 and note 86).

The passage about Theutus occurs in 274C-E, and Bruni omits the passages from 257C-279C entirely (not even bowdlerized, just omitted). So, it was not translated at all, from what we can gather from Hankins. As he says (p. 68), "The final portion of the dialogue, containing Socrates' account of true and false rhetoric, is wholly passed over..."

So there is still no reason to think that Plato's/Socrates' account of Theutus' invention of games was "widely known", except to those who could read the Greek manuscripts, until Ficino's translations (this is incidentally proven by the fact that the attribution of the invention of cards to Mercury in the 16th century depends upon the inclusion of cards in the category of "alea" - games of chance, and Ficino's phrase "alearum ludos" tranlates Plato's "petteias" or "kubeias" (the first being draughts, the second cubical dice) here).

Ross
 

kwaw

Ross G Caldwell said:
the inspiration for Bernardino's "Diabolic Liturgy", becomes recombined with the latter in the 16th century with the knowledge of Plato (through Ficino's translation), and voilà, the Devil who invented cards (because he invented alea) is known by name - Theuth-Mercury....

(this is incidentally proven by the fact that the attribution of the invention of cards to Mercury in the 16th century depends upon the inclusion of cards in the category of "alea" - games of chance, and Ficino's phrase "alearum ludos" tranlates Plato's "petteias" or "kubeias" (the first being draughts, the second cubical dice) here).


Ross

But the conflation of mercury/hermes/trismegistus/thoth and the relation of such to hieroglyphics and as inventor of dice was known in Latin speaking west way before then of course, for example:

"Among the Egyptians the priests have one kind of letters, the common people another, the priestly letters are called hieras, the popular pandemos. (Isidore Etymologiae 1.3.5).

"Mercury has three different names expressive of different cultures and functions... As the Roman "Mercury," he represents conversation, or eloquence, sermo... "Mercury is called so, as if running between, or in the middle, because conversation runs in the middle between men"... And ... because conversation takes place between sellers and buyers, he governs commerce....Hence he also has wings because words run quickly...

"His Greek name Hermes means messenger which in Latin means intermediary. He is said to be a messenger... because through speech all thought is announced... He is the teacher or master of thieves or robberies..., that is because eloquence decieves the minds of the listeners...He holds a caduceus, on which snakes wriggle, or with which he forces apart snakes, that is, poison. From Servius comes the notion that those who are at war or at variance with each other are appeased by the speeches of ambassadors (go-betweens), as snakes are separated by a rod... For armies and dissidents are calmed by the speech of intermediaries, and Isidore adds that, according to Livy, envoys for peace are called caduceatores, bearers of Hermes's caduceus, that is, the flaf of truce...

"On account of his excellence and knowledge of many arts," Mercury bears yet a third name, again Greek, "Trismegistus,"... and means "thrice greatest." As the Egyptian god of wisdom, ibis-headed Thoth served as divine scribe at the judgement of the dead and, like Mercury (Hermes), was linked with writing and therefore knowledge: he transmitted to Isidore ancient Egyptian knowledge of hieroglyphs...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...9-1&sig=pTwWBRa05Dza8fI7WqZCRIz8-I8#PPA155,M1

Archbishop Hincmar of Rheims attributes to the devil through Mercury "the invention of dice-playing: sicut isti qui de denariis quasi jocari dicuntur, quod omnino diabolicum est, et, sicut legimus, primum diabolus hoc per Mercurium prodidit, unde et Mercurius inventor illius dicitur..."

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=GGrpB3vePKE1qwPsutUUlwdTV6c

Also here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dWQPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA652&dq=&as_brr=3&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

quote:
Déjà Hincmar de Reims (+882) nous apprend que Mercure a inventé ce jeu à l'instigation du diable : « Sicut isti qui de denariis « quasi jocari dicuntur, quod omnino diabolicum est, et, sicut le- .. gimus, primum diabolus hoc per Mercurium prodidit , unde et « Mercurius inventer illius dicitur. «(Hincm., Opp. I, 656.) Un poète lyrique allemand du XIIIe siècle, Reinmar von Zweter, nous donne même l'explication des points que le diable grava sur le dé : l'as signifie Dieu tout-puissant qui tient dans sa main le ciel et la terre exprimés par le nombre deux; le trois représente les trois noms de la Divinité; le quatre, les quatre évangélistes ; le cinq, les cinq sens de l'homme; le six, les six semaines de carême pendant lesquelles le diable gagne tant d'âmes par le jeu (voy. von der Hagen, minnes., I, 656). 11 y a plus : le dé a été personnifié et est devenu un démon sous le nom de Decivs.

Google translation:
"Already Hincmar Reims (+882) teaches us that Mercury has invented this game at the instigation of the devil « Sicut isti qui de denariis « quasi jocari dicuntur, quod omnino diabolicum est, et, sicut le- .. gimus, primum diabolus hoc per Mercurium prodidit , unde et « Mercurius inventer illius dicitur. «(Hincm., Opp. I, 656.) A German poet of the thirteenth century, Reinmar von Zweter even gives us an explanation of the points that the devil engraved on the die: the ace Mean God Almighty who holds in his hand the heavens and the earth expressed by the number two; the three represents the three names of Divinity, and the four, the four Evangelists; the five, the five senses of Man; the six, the six weeks of Lent, during which the devil wins many souls by the game (see von der Hagen, minnes., I, 656). There is more: the die has been personified and became a demon by the name of Decivs."

On Hincmar of Reims (born 806, died 882):
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07356b.htm

Kwaw
 

mjhurst

Hi, Ross,

Ross G Caldwell said:
If you start from the Moon you won't find the finger, but - and this is why I think so many misunderstand how I mean "history" - the historian is *really* looking at the finger, and who is doing the pointing, and how they are doing it, and their explanations as to why they are doing it (i.e. pointing at the Moon).
That's the perfect metaphor for the reversal of focus, from the mystical approach seeking the Truth today to the historical approach seeking evidence and understanding about what people were doing back then.

Ross G Caldwell said:
Well, the Anonymous is much more (neo)-Platonic, while still being Christian, than Piscina. Piscina is overtly Catholic and Christian, while Anonymous centers on "God" and man as microcosm.
I'm really looking forward to seeing these pieces all put together.

Best regards,
Michael
 

Ross G Caldwell

Hi Michael,

Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell
If you start from the Moon you won't find the finger, but - and this is why I think so many misunderstand how I mean "history" - the historian is *really* looking at the finger, and who is doing the pointing, and how they are doing it, and their explanations as to why they are doing it (i.e. pointing at the Moon).

That's the perfect metaphor for the reversal of focus, from the mystical approach seeking the Truth today to the historical approach seeking evidence and understanding about what people were doing back then.

Ah, glad it worked. I could have added that history (looking closely at the who, what, where, when and why of the pointing) might teach us that this particular "Moon" isn't what we might naively presume it to be. In this analogy, the Moon is just a metaphor for an as-yet unclear idea.

I'm really looking forward to seeing these pieces all put together.

Easier said than done, of course. Besides the quality of my copy, causing transcription problems, there is my incomplete knowledge of the language. If it were a faded copy of 16th century English, it would be much easier. But this isn't something you can throw at an Italian friend and say "can you translate this for me?"

You have to make an honest attempt, and *then* take your lumps for your howlers by someone who knows better.

Best regards,

Ross
 

Ross G Caldwell

Hi Kwaw,

kwaw said:
But the conflation of mercury/hermes/trismegistus/thoth and the relation of such to hieroglyphics and as inventor of dice was known in Latin speaking west way before then of course,

Yes for the classical conflation (which I've noted elsewhere, and because of the extent of Hugutio's dictionary might even be considered "common" knowledge among well-educated people into the 15th century) - but you might consider that only Lactantius uses the form "Thoth" - it is usually Theutates or Theut, and in Cicero, Thoyt - , and yes for the invention - or in some cases "introduction" - of letters among the Egyptians. But the notion of dice or games in general does not seem to have been widely known, even among the most erudite. I didn't know Hincmar, thanks.

For the most part we're not disagreeing, but this is where Michael's signature from Horace - "Who distinguishes well, learns well" - is good to adopt.

for example:

"Among the Egyptians the priests have one kind of letters, the common people another, the priestly letters are called hieras, the popular pandemos. (Isidore Etymologiae 1.3.5).

"Mercury has three different names expressive of different cultures and functions... As the Roman "Mercury," he represents conversation, or eloquence, sermo... "Mercury is called so, as if running between, or in the middle, because conversation runs in the middle between men"... And ... because conversation takes place between sellers and buyers, he governs commerce....Hence he also has wings because words run quickly...

"His Greek name Hermes means messenger which in Latin means intermediary. He is said to be a messenger... because through speech all thought is announced... He is the teacher or master of thieves or robberies..., that is because eloquence decieves the minds of the listeners...He holds a caduceus, on which snakes wriggle, or with which he forces apart snakes, that is, poison. From Servius comes the notion that those who are at war or at variance with each other are appeased by the speeches of ambassadors (go-betweens), as snakes are separated by a rod... For armies and dissidents are calmed by the speech of intermediaries, and Isidore adds that, according to Livy, envoys for peace are called caduceatores, bearers of Hermes's caduceus, that is, the flaf of truce...

"On account of his excellence and knowledge of many arts," Mercury bears yet a third name, again Greek, "Trismegistus,"... and means "thrice greatest." As the Egyptian god of wisdom, ibis-headed Thoth served as divine scribe at the judgement of the dead and, like Mercury (Hermes), was linked with writing and therefore knowledge: he transmitted to Isidore ancient Egyptian knowledge of hieroglyphs...

"Qui bene distinguit..." - this author quotes a lot of sources in a brief span, and we can't access all of them, but I'm sure Isidore doesn't mention the name "Thoth" (in any spelling) in his Etymologiae. It's immaterial, since it could be got from elsewhere, but since Isidore anywhere is a strong argument for "common knowledge" of something, it should be pointed out that knowledge, common or not, of Mercury being called Thoth, was not taken from Isidore.

Also, the locution "he transmitted to Isidore ancient Egyptian knowledge of hierologyphs" is extremely bizarre. It seems as if bad editing must have happend here. I imagine he means "he transmitted, according to Isidore, ancient Egyptian knowledge of hieroglyphs."

Unless you can find that Isidore explained hieroglyphs according to Thoth somewhere, the passage has to read as defective and needs to be amended.
(i.e. do you think Isidore, the Christian writer, claims anywhere that Thoth taught him the interpretation of hieroglyphs?)

Archbishop Hincmar of Rheims attributes to the devil through Mercury "the invention of dice-playing: sicut isti qui de denariis quasi jocari dicuntur, quod omnino diabolicum est, et, sicut legimus, primum diabolus hoc per Mercurium prodidit, unde et Mercurius inventor illius dicitur..."

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=GGrpB3vePKE1qwPsutUUlwdTV6c

Also here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dWQPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA652&dq=&as_brr=3&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

quote:
Déjà Hincmar de Reims (+882) nous apprend que Mercure a inventé ce jeu à l'instigation du diable : « Sicut isti qui de denariis « quasi jocari dicuntur, quod omnino diabolicum est, et, sicut le- .. gimus, primum diabolus hoc per Mercurium prodidit , unde et « Mercurius inventer illius dicitur. «(Hincm., Opp. I, 656.) Un poète lyrique allemand du XIIIe siècle, Reinmar von Zweter, nous donne même l'explication des points que le diable grava sur le dé : l'as signifie Dieu tout-puissant qui tient dans sa main le ciel et la terre exprimés par le nombre deux; le trois représente les trois noms de la Divinité; le quatre, les quatre évangélistes ; le cinq, les cinq sens de l'homme; le six, les six semaines de carême pendant lesquelles le diable gagne tant d'âmes par le jeu (voy. von der Hagen, minnes., I, 656). 11 y a plus : le dé a été personnifié et est devenu un démon sous le nom de Decivs.

Google translation:
"Already Hincmar Reims (+882) teaches us that Mercury has invented this game at the instigation of the devil « Sicut isti qui de denariis « quasi jocari dicuntur, quod omnino diabolicum est, et, sicut le- .. gimus, primum diabolus hoc per Mercurium prodidit , unde et « Mercurius inventer illius dicitur. «(Hincm., Opp. I, 656.) A German poet of the thirteenth century, Reinmar von Zweter even gives us an explanation of the points that the devil engraved on the die: the ace Mean God Almighty who holds in his hand the heavens and the earth expressed by the number two; the three represents the three names of Divinity, and the four, the four Evangelists; the five, the five senses of Man; the six, the six weeks of Lent, during which the devil wins many souls by the game (see von der Hagen, minnes., I, 656). There is more: the die has been personified and became a demon by the name of Decivs."

On Hincmar of Reims (born 806, died 882):
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07356b.htm

Kwaw

Now THAT is interesting. I don't see a direct mention of dice in Hincmar's statements, but I'll take the author's word that he meant dice.

Not a common knowledge by any means, but it does show that if erudite enough (or just lucky to have a good library accessible), you could find out, even in the 9th century, a tradition of Mercury inventing games.

Thanks very much for Hincmar. I wonder if looking at the form of his statement could show us where he got his account, and possibly find others who used it.

Ross
 

kwaw

Ross G Caldwell said:
"Qui bene distinguit..." - this author quotes a lot of sources in a brief span, and we can't access all of them, but I'm sure Isidore doesn't mention the name "Thoth" (in any spelling) in his Etymologiae.

Yes I have misread the author, confusing his commentary with the text he quotes: Isidore Etymologies VIII.xi.49 mentions Mercury, Hermes and Trimegistus but not Thoth:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=_uTMOCPnjfVNlXnV4p1qdfE-TsI

Thanks for the correction, as you say the classical conflation (with varying spellings of thoth) was known from other sources anyway.

Kwaw.
 

Ross G Caldwell

kwaw said:
Thanks for the correction, as you say the classical conflation (with varying spellings of thoth) was known from other sources anyway.

Kwaw.

Thoth in medieval literature
Hermes-Mercury-Woden-Thoth-Moses

“Litteras et leges primos Mercurius aegyptiis dedit.”

(Mercury first gave letters and laws to the Egyptians - Marziano de San’Alosio (Marziano da Tortona), “Tractatus de deificatione sexdecim heroum” (before 1425)).

An extremely erudite 15th century reader could have known, with a reading in mostly standard sources (in the case of Eusebius, newly translated into Latin) that Mercury or Hermes had the Egyptian name Theyt, Thoyt or Thoth, if they had read Cicero (De Natura Deorum, 3, 56), Eusebius (Praeparatio Evangelica I, 9) or Lactantius (Divinae Institutiones, I, 6).

Lactantius quotes Cicero: “According to Cicero, Caius Cotta the Pontiff... says that there were five Mercuries; and having enumerated four in order, says that the fifth was he by whom Argus was slain, and that on this account he fled into Egypt, and gave letters and laws to the Egyptians. The Egyptians call him Thoth; and from him the first month of the year, that is, September, received its name among them. He also built a town, which is even now called in Greek Hermopolis.”

Eusebius: “Sanchuniathon... searched out with great care the history of Taautus, knowing that of all men under the sun Taautus was the first who thought of the invention of letters, and began the writing of records: and he laid the foundation, as it were, of his history, by beginning with him, whom the Egyptians called Thoyth, and the Alexandrians Thoth, by the Greeks Hermes, which interpreted, is Mercury” (Aegyptii Thoyth vocarunt, Alexandrini Thoth, Graeci Hermen, hoc est, Mercurium interpretati).

They could also have known that Hermes-Mercury-Thoth was also Moses, if they had read Eusebius (Praeparatio Evangelica IX, 27, 4; Eusebius has quoted a long passage of Artapanus, Hellenistic Jewish apologist of the 2nd century b.c.e.).

“Since she (the daughter of the Pharaoh, Merris) was barren, she adopted the child of one of the Jews and named it Moses. As a grown man he was called Mousaeus by the Greeks. This Mousaeus was the teacher of Orpheus. As a grown man he bestowed many useful things on mankind, for he invented boats and devices for stone construction and the Egyptian arms and the implements for drawing water and for warfare, and philosophy. Further he divided the state into 36 nomes and appointed for each of the nomes the god to be worshipped, and for the priests the sacred letters, and that they should be cats and dogs and ibises.”

(J.J. Collins trans., “Artapanus”, in James H. Charlesworth, ed. “The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha” (Doubleday, 1985) vol. II, pp. 898-899).

From the etymological dictionary of Hugutio of Pisa (Uguccione da Pisa), “Magnae Derivationes” (1192-1201), the only dictionary Dante mentions by name, readers could have made the connection between Mercury and Theut, and the Teutonic (German pagan) peoples.

"Theutates, tis, the god of death so named is Mercury, because being sacrificed to with human blood, or composed of "theos" and "athanatos", that is "immortal god", whence Theutonus, a, um, a certain people, (so named) because they are savage."

(445. Theutates, tis, deus mortis sic dictus est Mercurius quia humano sanguine sacrificabatur, uel componitur a theos et athanatos, id est deus immortalis, unde Theutonus, a, um, quedam gens quia fera est.)

Hugutio may have learned of blood sacrifices to Mercury from Tacitus, “Germania” (Chapter 9), who says that among the Germans, “of the gods, Mercury is the principal object of their adoration; whom, on certain days, they think it lawful to propitiate with human victims”; or from Lucan, “Pharsalia” (Civil War, bk. I):

And they that use with cursed bloud their Idol-gods to please,
Teutates fell, and Hesus grim, whom nought else may appease
But sacrifice of humane flesh; and Taranis likewise,
Worhsip'd curst Diana is, just after Scythicke guise.

(Et quibus immitis placatur sanguine diro
Teutates, horrensque feris altaribus Esus
et Taranis Scythicae non mitior ara Dianae.)

(Trans. Philemon Holland, of William Camden, "Britannia" (1607))

Paulus Diaconus (Paolo Diacono, Paul the Deacon, c. 720-799) attested to the Germans worshipping Mercury as “Wodan” in his “Historia Langobardorum” (History of the Lombards, obviously a popular text among Lombardy's ruling classes):

“Wotan indeed, whom by adding a letter they called Godan [or Guodan] is he who among the Romans is called Mercury, and he is worshiped by all the peoples of Germany as a god, though he is deemed to have existed, not about these times, but long before, and not in Germany, but in Greece.”

(Wotan sane, quem adiecta littera Godan dixerunt, ipse est qui apud Romanos Mercurius dicitur et ab universis Germaniae gentibus ut deus adoratur; qui non circa haec tempora, sed longe anterius, nec in Germania, sed in Grecia fuisse perhibetur.)

Both Adam of Bremen (d. 1075) and Geoffrey of Monmouth (c. 1100-1155) know Woden as Mercury as well.

I think an extremely erudite person could have gathered these conflations, with the possible exception of Eusebius (Praeparatio Evangelica was only translated into Latin by George Trapezuntios (born 1403) sometime around the Council of Ferrara-Florence, which began in 1438), any time before the early 15th century.

Nothing about Moses-Thoth-Mercury-Hermes-Woden inventing games here though. Relation to Tarot's invention? No. Interesting in its own right? Certainly. But even Bernardino and the following preachers of the Diabolique Liturgy didn't mention such conflations. They could not have been common knowledge, but they might have been uncommon knowledge.

Ross