Michael or Raphael?

wizzle

In my beginning studies of angels I have noticed that Mathers assigns the angel Michael to Tipareth and most other sources assign Raphael. Does anyone know why there is a disparity and which is the correct assignment?
 

Grigori

I've got Michael listed under Hod and Raphael under Tiphareth. That came from Regardie. I guess nothig helpful for you, but good luck :)
 

Huck

Pehaps it's of interest to look in Agrippa of Nettesheim in the Raphael/Michael question ...

but ... anyway .. "correct" doesn't exist. It only exists,. if the observer sets it as part of a system, that he "prefers".

Most of the Tarots have a "Magician", so you can talk about, if the position "1" is "correct" for it or not.
Some Tarots don't have a Magician, then it's superfluous to talk about this question. What ever you think what correct is, the other versions existed, still exist and will exist and don't care about your problems. And there are users, which use them, without caring much about you, too.

Similar it is with these angels ... one author sets it at this place and others see reasons, that it should have another position.
"Any kabbalist had his own system" once a man said, who was considered to be the most intensive student of all kabbalistic documents and literature. So naturally you meet a lot of disturbing contradictions in these systems.
 

jmd

Part of the problem that I personally see is when trying to systematise what is perhaps best left far more fluid.

It may be appropriate to ask a question such as 'what kind of spiritual impulse from Michael would shine through Tifaret, and how is this different to a spiritual impulse from Michael shining through Hesed?'

Then, a similar question could again be asked for Raphael, etc..

Having done this, one may find that there are more similar fits. For example, what appears to be a key quality of Raphael, and what appears to be key qualities of each Sefirah? It is, in my view, in attempting to answer this last question that various correlations have been deemed more 'correct' than others.

Another method of correlation is by being systematic, by for example already determining a hierarchy of archangelic names.

In that sense, one may rise upon the spheres and 'drop' therein those names in order. Personally, this is not a method I personally find inspiring or correct... but it certainly appears to have been applied by some.
 

wizzle

Well, I was planning on invoking the Angel of Tipareth. Darned embarrasing to have the wrong angel in your living room.

If we go color-wise, Raphel is definetly more yellow and Michael more red and/or orange. I generally use JMD's approach to the Sephiroth. Which is very similar to Crowley's and or Regardies......who said to consider the Sephiroth like filing cabinets.

Dion Fortune also has Raphael under Tipareth and Michael under Hod. I just find it strange that Mather's is out of step on this attribution.
 

Huck

wizzle said:
Well, I was planning on invoking the Angel of Tipareth. Darned embarrasing to have the wrong angel in your living room.

If we go color-wise, Raphel is definetly more yellow and Michael more red and/or orange. I generally use JMD's approach to the Sephiroth. Which is very similar to Crowley's and or Regardies......who said to consider the Sephiroth like filing cabinets.

Dion Fortune also has Raphael under Tipareth and Michael under Hod. I just find it strange that Mather's is out of step on this attribution.

Some, already in older time, understood Kabbala as an intellectual matter, as "world explanation" and "speculation about the end of the world", some others saw it as "practical magic" to solve concrete personal problems.

When you're such a great magician, that you can invoke highstanding principles like Raphael and Michael, and do combine it with such questions in a publical tarotforum, like "I don't know, if Raphael or Michael is the angel at Tiphereth, can you tell me", then you look like a car-driver with no license.

I'm not sure, if either Michael or Raphael will take you serious, but me humble person gets problems. But ... there was always a big difference between theoretical kabbala and practical kabbala ...

:) ... and you make nice fractals.
 

wizzle

Huck,

I'm a pretty poor mage. However, I'm fairly good at humor as we Americans see it. Sorry it annoyed you. My comments about angels in the living room is typical toungue in cheek humor. I was making fun of myself, actually.

I see most subjects as humorous and open to question. It's when we take them and ourselves too seriously that we develop problems. So let the frivolity begin. Sun in sag and moon in geminii here.. sorry. Must drive you serious types up the wall.
 

kwaw

Zohar attributes Michael to Chesed, Gabriel to Gedulah, Uriel to Tifereth and Rapheal to Malkuth and/or Yesod. But there are numerous varations among [and within] jewish, christian and hermetic sources.

Kwaw
 

Huck

wizzle said:
Huck,

I'm a pretty poor mage. However, I'm fairly good at humor as we Americans see it. Sorry it annoyed you. My comments about angels in the living room is typical toungue in cheek humor. I was making fun of myself, actually.

I see most subjects as humorous and open to question. It's when we take them and ourselves too seriously that we develop problems. So let the frivolity begin. Sun in sag and moon in geminii here.. sorry. Must drive you serious types up the wall.

:) ... good to find some humour, I just was anxious that you're a little too serious in these matters ... some people are, so one doesn't know ...
But it is, as earlier said, there are so many contradictions by all these people of the past, who claimed to know something, that's occasionally a problem to keep the confusion at the other side of the river.
 

MikeTheAltarboy

As I understood it, according to the GD system, which I know a bit better than others (though still not well), Raphael is the *sepherotic* angel of tiphareth, in that it is the sephira of healing and redemption. Michael, however, is the *planetary* angel of the Sun, and the Sun is assigned to Tiphareth.