More curiosity...

Aeon418

Here's an explanation that helped me understand what was done (but not the why)
That last bit is important. The diagrams are meant to demonstrate the swaps. But many people try to derive the swaps from the diagrams and end up twisting themselves in a double loop. :laugh:

I must say that although Jerry is quite lucid and clear in that article you posted a link to, he does risk confusion right at the end by conflating Card with Path. :confused:
 

Michael Sternbach

Thanks Clos and Aeon,

Looks like I really need to wrap my head around this some more. What confuses me is that with Adjustment and Lust, both their signs and their letters are switched whereas with The Star and The Emperor, the signs are in their natural order, only the letters are not. Yet the two loops seem to have exactly the same kind of rationale.
 

Aeon418

What confuses me is that with Adjustment and Lust, both their signs and their letters are switched whereas with The Star and The Emperor, the signs are in their natural order, only the letters are not. Yet the two loops seem to have exactly the same kind of rationale.
This is where it gets confusing. :laugh:

You're right. The IV-XVII swap does not exactly mirror the VIII-XI swap. And I personally find it hard to believe that a sharp intellect such as Crowley could have missed the obvious consequences of such an imbalance. After all he had been playing around with this swap since the 1920's and possibly earlier. It's not something he suddenly knocked out just for The Book of Thoth.

All I can figure is that Crowley was doing something different. And that's what I have tried to map here:
(It's not colour blind friendly I'm afraid.)
Colour key: In order. Out of order.

Hebrew alphabet order:

XVII - Heh - Aquarius

XI - Teth - Leo

VIII - Lamed - Libra

IV - Tzaddi - Aries

Tarot numeral order:

IV - Tzaddi - Aries

VIII - Lamed - Libra

XI - Teth - Leo

XVII - Heh - Aquarius
There are two distinct and separate Tarot sequencing keys. The numerals on the cards and the Hebrew alphabet. These ordering methods don't match on cards VIII and XI. The Golden Dawn solved this little problem by forcing the Tarot to accommodate the Hebrew by changing the order of the cards. Yeah, as far as solutions go it works in an ugly kind of way. It certainly has the merit of being practical. But it still leaves the little wrinkle of the feminine letter Heh being attributed to butch old Atu IV.

Crowley's solution, based on AL I:57, seems to give each sequence equal primacy. Both the numeral and the Hebrew orders are valid, but they don't match up perfectly. If only a way could be found to share the imbalance between the two sequences. Hmmmm...... Bingo! Swap Atu's IV & XVII and and keep their zodiac signs with them. As already noted this is slightly different to the other swap where the letters and signs stayed together.

The net result is two separate sequences that mirror each other. As demonstrated above, if the Hebrew letter order is used Aries and Aquarius loop around Pisces. If the Tarot numeral order is used Leo and Libra loop around Virgo. It's almost as if each sequence needs the other in order to balance the zodiac. (Two inter-linked lies expressing a greater Truth?)

Is this dual arrangement Crowley's original intent? I don't know. But it is the natural outcome of Crowley's asymmetrical swap that separated zodiac signs from letters. It might also explain some of the 'editorial mistakes' in The Book of Thoth. A book that Crowley issued using his A.'.A'.'. Magus 9=2 motto, To Mega Therion. The Book of Thoth is the Tarot, and the Tarot is the book of a Magus.
Liber B vel Magi said:
1. In the beginning doth the Magus speak Truth, and send forth Illusion and Falsehood to enslave the soul. Yet therein is the Mystery of Redemption.
 

Zephyros

Aeon418 said:
There are two distinct and separate Tarot sequencing keys. The numerals on the cards and the Hebrew alphabet. These ordering methods don't match on cards VIII and XI. The Golden Dawn solved this little problem by forcing the Tarot to accommodate the Hebrew by changing the order of the cards. Yeah, as far as solutions go it works in an ugly kind of way. It certainly has the merit of being practical. But it still leaves the little wrinkle of the feminine letter Heh being attributed to butch old Atu IV.

But doesn't it also not "work" because Aleph is zero when its worth is one? That would make things more messy, of course, but the standard premise is that the Fool ought to be zero.
 

Abrac

Here's a diagram I use to help sort all of this out. The numbers in parentheses show the natural order of the letters. Everything in the GD arrangement flows quite nicely. Crowley's doesn't seem to be as eloquent.

***UPDATE***

Image updated

Zodiac Belts
 

Aeon418

Everything flows very nicely in the GD arrangement.
Sure it does .... after it's made to fit by forcing the Tarot to accommodate the Hebrew by changing the traditional numerals.
Crowley's, while adding another loop on the end of the belt, doesn't seem as eloquent overall.
I think symmetry and balance is rather nice. After all you can't have a Girdle of Isis with only one loop in it.
 

Amanda

Very informative essay closrapexa.

Of course, I have a question. :D

The reason Crowley started with #4 - The Emperor -- is that because of the significance of "4" in what you wrote about with all things coming together and forming structure? Is that why he started with the Emperor on his double loop?

As the summary card of a reading has been more frequently utilized, I have noticed that people struggle with the summary number 22 being the Fool, or the Emperor. I personally, assign it to the Fool as I feel the Fool should be included as a possibility for a summary card, while the Emperor can already be arrived at.
 

Michael Sternbach

This is where it gets confusing. :laugh:

You're right. The IV-XVII swap does not exactly mirror the VIII-XI swap. And I personally find it hard to believe that a sharp intellect such as Crowley could have missed the obvious consequences of such an imbalance. After all he had been playing around with this swap since the 1920's and possibly earlier. It's not something he suddenly knocked out just for The Book of Thoth.

All I can figure is that Crowley was doing something different. And that's what I have tried to map here:
(It's not colour blind friendly I'm afraid.)

There are two distinct and separate Tarot sequencing keys. The numerals on the cards and the Hebrew alphabket. These ordering methods don't match on cards VIII and XI. The Golden Dawn solved this little problem by forcing the Tarot to accommodate the Hebrew by changing the order of the cards. Yeah, as far as solutions go it works in an ugly kind of way. It certainly has the merit of being practical. But it still leaves the little wrinkle of the feminine letter Heh being attributed to butch old Atu IV.

Crowley's solution, based on AL I:57, seems to give each sequence equal primacy. Both the numeral and the Hebrew orders are valid, but they don't match up perfectly. If only a way could be found to share the imbalance between the two sequences. Hmmmm...... Bingo! Swap Atu's IV & XVII and and keep their zodiac signs with them. As already noted this is slightly different to the other swap where the letters and signs stayed together.

The net result is two separate sequences that mirror each other. As demonstrated above, if the Hebrew letter order is used Aries and Aquarius loop around Pisces. If the Tarot numeral order is used Leo and Libra loop around Virgo. It's almost as if each sequence needs the other in order to balance the zodiac. (Two inter-linked lies expressing a greater Truth?)

Is this dual arrangement Crowley's original intent? I don't know. But it is the natural outcome of Crowley's asymmetrical swap that separated zodiac signs from letters. It might also explain some of the 'editorial mistakes' in The Book of Thoth. A book that Crowley issued using his A.'.A'.'. Magus 9=2 motto, To Mega Therion. The Book of Thoth is the Tarot, and the Tarot is the book of a Magus.

Thanks. I also looked at the diagrams in the BoT and in DuQuette, respectively, again meanwhile.

The problem is, if you put Aries and Aquarius on a loop, Trumps IV and XVII are not in the right order any more. If you want to restore the correct order of the Hebrew alphabet, you need a loop in a band of letters, not zodiacal signs.

The logic here is... twisted.
 

Michael Sternbach

Here's a diagram I use to help sort all of this out. The numbers in parentheses show the natural order of the letters. Everything flows very nicely in the GD arrangement. Crowley's, while adding another loop on the end of the belt, doesn't seem as eloquent overall.

Zodiac Belts

If you accept the GD arrangement, why do you need a loop at all?
 

Aeon418

The problem is, if you put Aries and Aquarius on a loop, Trumps IV and XVII are not in the right order any more. If you want to restore the correct order of the Hebrew alphabet, you need a loop in a band of letters, not zodiacal signs.
This is why I re-posted the little colour enhanced demo above. It shows one arrangement where the Hebrew letter order is the dominant pattern. In this sequence the you get an Aries-Aquarius loop around Pisces.

In the second arrangement the Tarot numeral order is the primary sequencing key. According to this pattern you get a Leo-Libra loop around Virgo.

The key point to remember is that the Hebrew order can never line up perfectly with the Tarot numeral order without forcing changes on the Tarot numerals. That's what the Golden Dawn did by making Strength 8 and Justice 11. (It still doesn't solve the macho Heh problem either.)

Crowley's switch allows for both ordering sequences to be given equal importance. The Hebrew letter order discloses the emanations as they descend the Tree of Life. But in this order you have the Aries-Aquarius loop.

The Tarot numeral order shows various alchemical motifs. But in this order you have the Leo-Libra loop. This balances the loop in the Hebrew order. Neither of these orders has primacy over the other. But they both need each other to balance the zodiac.