Opheicus

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sapienza said:

It is interesting because (in western tropical astrology) I am a strong Sag with Aquarian stuff and with lots of Capricorn as well. So the Sag/Aqu part of me loves astrology but the Cap part is constantly reminding me that this is a load of garbage because there is no logical basis for it at all. And yet, it works for me. All of it. The more I look at the it more it fits.

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If you do an adjustment to your chart to 'correct it' (ie. precess it to align with a sidereal system ) you will notice that the relationship of the planets with each other and the Sun is not effected ... it is the 'backdrop' of stars (or signs) that changes nearly 30 degrees so some of your dynamics will be the same but work in different areas. eg. I am tropically a Cancer and I do feel quiet Cancerian at times and some close friends will not have it any other way as they KNOW I am a Cancer from close observation. But what are they saying about me? I am a Cancer - what does that mean? What they appear to be saying is that when I was born the Sun was 'in' the sign of Cancer and I exhibit traits associated with Cancer (and I do too). Yet I have always had a 'problem' that I become analytical and move away from that Cancarian nature and some friends and family dont like that. Sidereally I am 'a Gemini' (the actuall backdrop of the stars behind the Sun when I was born.) I Know I am a Gemini and relate to that ... so whats going on? Casual aquaintences pick me as Gemini quiet quickly - it so obvious. But with the precession of my Sun from Cancer to Gemini, my Moon goes from Leo to Cancer (because although all relationships WITHIN the wheel stay the same, they all move together), intimate friends whom I share my self and feelings with via my Moon easily detect my Cancerian nature , but others, often to whom my Moon is occluded see my Gemini. So although I could convince myself that I am a Cancer quiet easily it causes problems figuring out certain dynamics in relationships and with myself. Now that I understand my Cancerian energy comes thru my Moon and Gemini via my Sun, quiet a few confusions in my life and about myself have cleared up.

sapienza said:

And so I wonder if whatever system we use to learn about ourself is irrelevant and its accuracy is also irrelevant because what we 'see' in the system is just a mirror of our self and our own processes anyway. Does that even make sense? This is getting a bit long-winded. I'll leave it with you.

sapienza

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Yes. I have had people show me books and charts and exclaim how accurate they are (to them) while others listening are laughing silently that this only describes the persons illusions about themselves and all can see a very different personality at work in their relationships to them.

Tropical astrology, by nature of measuring houses starting at 0 deg. Aries as the Equinoctal point is not a cosmic system. The equinoctal point has no existence or reality outside of the Earths viewpoint (as it is formed by a relationship between the tilt of the Earths axis in relation to the plane of the Solar System). Therefore it is measuring seasonal progression. One might as well say that one is a June/July instead of a Cancer.

Now I full realise that a baby born amidst the short days and cold wheather of mid-winter can be differently programmed than one born in long hot days and that is one astrologicaly dynamic, but what about the stella and cosmic influences portending to our time of birth? How are we to correctly understand this greater and more spiritual destiny (ie. our own true self and path as opposed to one expected of us or mapped out for us) if we dont have an accurate map of the stella influences?

Ophiuchus

Hi Ravenest,

I thought this link might interest you Ophiuchus
This is an excerpt from the link above as to why they think this sign was "ignored"

Twelve of the signs of the zodiac are familiar to us from the astrology columns in the daily newspapers, but what happened to the thirteenth, and what was its symbol? This question can be answered by consulting the works of the ancient astronomers. Ptolemy of Alexandria gives the name of the constellation, and also the bearing and magnitude of the stars which form it. The constellation was called Ophicius (in Greek) and Serpentarius (in Latin). Both names mean 'snake-holder', and refer to the pythoness, the high priestess of the goddess temples. The symbol of this sign, a bare-breasted woman holding snakes, occurred in the Sumerian; Minoan, and other cultures of the Archaic period. Thus the missing month, the month that we disrupted an orderly calendar to avoid, was the month of the Goddess

Less familiar is the forgotten thirteenth sign, which lies "betwixt" them, Ophicius, the Snake-Holder, the symbol of which was a goddess or priestess brandishing two snakes, and which connoted the most important new moon in the goddess' lunar calendar. Milton, who also wrote the Book of Common Prayer used by Protestant congregations, has told us here in cryptic form that he was mindful that the Christian Satan (aka the Devil), was a new name given to an older but unmentionable deity, the goddess.

According to this system it makes me a Pisces, and I have always been more of a Piscean than an Arian. Although my ascendent is Pisces. So using this system, if my sun is Pisces what would now be my "ascendent"? I would think that there probably isn't a software programme that includes in the natal chart "Ophiuchus" it would be a mission and head ache to astrologers to have to re-learn a new method.

I am in New Zealand and our Maori culture have interesting stories too as far as the constellations. Our Maori New Year is the New Moon after the first appearance of Matariki or "the pleiades' usually in and around 20-26 June. This makes more sense, than the Gregorian New Year of January 1, it has no celestial significance at all. Although we know that the Gregorian calendar was changed to fit in with who ever was in charge at the time, and their ceremonies and self-proclaimed rulership just like Caesar with his Julian calendar. There is alot of wisdom and truth in ancient and native cultures. They were at a time, when they didn't have the influence of western society, they lived by the stars and nature.

Phoenix

Thanks PR, interesting .... the Goddess ... holding two snakes? I've seen a statue of that. She's also on the Thoth Universe card (The daughter of Bablon the beautiful 'dancing' with what looks like a diamond python).

No doubt your contact with Maori culture has enabled you to see the living tradition that deffinatly used a trype of astrology based on the the stars and heavens.

Sadly, nowadays, many people are denying the link bewteen modern astrology and the starts.

Hi Ravenest,

Yes our ancestors, followed the stars religiously, they followed them to navigate here, at the time of the great migration from our origins of Hawaiki.

Also one of our great chiefs the second Maori king, had looked to the stars and had seen that a great change needed to take place, otherwise our culture was going to die out, we were very much a warrior race, but we couldn't compete with a weapon that could kill 100 or so metres away. We were hand to hand combat fighters, with taiaha and patu's, (spear, hand baton) But not only the white man, we were fighting our own people as well, other tribes. So he saw in the stars, that a time of peace was coming, he was known as the peace maker.

It is interesting that I also read Here that at times of Great "plagues and illnesses" when there were eclipses, solar and lunar, a combination of other planets were sitting at the left hand of ophiuchus.

Cool. Also here in Oz ... outback ... in the desert where the sky is V.clear and the stars are numerous and dazzling, some Aboriginal cultures utalise the shapes where there are NOT any stars ... the black dust clouds in the milky way and others. They symbolise shapes to them ... the same way we have made shapes by joining the stars together, they made shapes in the blackness between the stars. For example in the Wardaman culture the stories of these mystical beings are so important that the whole initiating seqence (into skin, blood, country and culture - ie. the whole reason for existance) is based on the 'adventures' and parables and seasonal timings of these 'dark area animals'.