Elemental dignities

D Sparkles

Barleywine said:
That's exactly how I did it for almost 40 years, what I call "preponderances and deficits" of an element (I especially look for "missing" elements since they often show where the most attention is needed). I filched the idea from my astrological practice. I learned about EDs when I came here (didn't have the Golden Dawn materials early on), but I kind of treat them the same way I did previously: more as simple (and sometimes not so simple) weighting than a calculation. EDs seem like a specialized application where you apply a similar concept to individual cards rather than the spread as a whole. I can see where it could be used as a replacement for reversals, but I see no reason not to use both; guess I'm too much of a pragmatist to dump something that has worked for me for so long.

Hi Barleywine, thanks for responding. I guess the missing elements part makes sense. In my reading the suit of swords is missing - communication. Lack of a communication is an issue when it comes to the two people.

D Sparkles

Saskia said:
I admit I don't understand ED's very well, but "add and substract" approach doesn't make sense to me. Why would you even do a spread if cards cancel each other out - why not just pull one card that actually tells what's left in itself?

However, I do get the idea of weighing the elements and seeing how compatible they are. Cups can water down the Wands and so on. However, I think in balanced life all of the aspects are needed and I don't think the weighing necessarily means "take out something" or discount impacts. It's more about seeing different angles of the same issue and different matters or emotions that all play a part.

I don't think you need to use either, EDs or reversals. Everyone needs to develop a style that works for them. If you get clear messages without either, then there's no need to add something that just confuses you. If you struggle with understanding the cards, then maybe pay more attention to the basics and focus on figuring the suit meanings and number meanings with absolute clarity instead of adding extra levels at this stage (or ever?). There's not one right way to read tarot, you'll find your own, even if nobody else does it the same way!

But then again, I read with reversals because that works for me and haven't really delved into this topic of EDs....

I think I should follow your advice and pay more attention to the basics as EDs and reversals are really confusing me. Has anyone ever made contradictory interpretations using ED? It would help if I had an example of the same reading being interpreted with EDs and then just the card readings. Ideally, I'd like to discuss my reading, but I'm not sure that will be allowed until my post is moved to the other forum.

Barleywine

D Sparkles said:
Thanks for your response. I was wondering if two friendly negatives would overpower the one positive! How do you mean the Ace of Cups receives support from the 5 pentacles? Do you mean that the meaning is hinted at by the 5 of pentacles? The Ace of Cups signifies to me a huge gush of emotions (good or bad) and the 5 of pentacles is about being left in the cold. So do you mean that together with the 5 of pentacles, The Ace of Cups hints at sadness? The sadness fizzles away a little with the six of wands. Am I along the right lines?

Once again, we have to step away from the pictorial impression and think of the 5 of Pentacles elementally. The Five's are disruptive in general, and in Earth the effect is strain of the kind that builds up right before an earthquake. So if the Ace of Cups is a big gush of emotion (whenever I look at the Thoth Ace I think of someone dropping a water balloon on a sidewalk

), the 5 of Pentacles "feeding it" (as a "friendly" influence) would give the Ace something constructive to "push against" or "shove off from" in a purposeful way. Rather than being soft-focused and "all over the place" emotionally, the Ace becomes determined and driven toward a concrete objective. If the Five shows a state of stressful impasse, the Ace delivers a stroke of enthusiasm, imagination and inspiration to "kick out the jams" (in that old rock & roll expression); it makes me think of the Sun breaking out from behind clouds.

I think it stalls a bit when it bumps up against the 6 of Wands. The Sixes represent a temporary state of equilibrium, but in the impatient, self-interested element of Fire it's more fitful and less centered than otherwise. I can see where Water interacting with its antagonistic opposite, Fire, can create a "drying up" of feelings as more selfish inclinations emerge. But, as I said earlier, the Ace has a bit more inherent "clout" than the Six (being closer to its elemental source), so maybe it won't fare so badly and will have enough "oomph" to win through. In the best sense, this could show emotions winning the tug-of-war with ego issues.

Barleywine

Saskia said:
I admit I don't understand ED's very well, but "add and substract" approach doesn't make sense to me. Why would you even do a spread if cards cancel each other out - why not just pull one card that actually tells what's left in itself?

However, I do get the idea of weighing the elements and seeing how compatible they are. Cups can water down the Wands and so on. However, I think in balanced life all of the aspects are needed and I don't think the weighing necessarily means "take out something" or discount impacts. It's more about seeing different angles of the same issue and different matters or emotions that all play a part.

I don't think you need to use either, EDs or reversals. Everyone needs to develop a style that works for them. If you get clear messages without either, then there's no need to add something that just confuses you. If you struggle with understanding the cards, then maybe pay more attention to the basics and focus on figuring the suit meanings and number meanings with absolute clarity instead of adding extra levels at this stage (or ever?). There's not one right way to read tarot, you'll find your own, even if nobody else does it the same way!

But then again, I read with reversals because that works for me and haven't really delved into this topic of EDs....

I've been grappling with EDs for around five years now. I also can't see them as "iterative" in any meaningful or useful way, more like background color or "seasoning" similar to every other wrinkle that's been grafted on to the basic structure of tarot interpretation. For me they take second place to reversals as showing redirection of a card's energies. But I'm not entirely sure they're intended to; they seem to simply emphasize (or de-emphasize) certain qualities (conveniently expressed as elemental in nature) as a way to creatively blend the functioning of cards in combination. I do like the subtle interplay of forces this can reveal.

D Sparkles

Barleywine said:
Once again, we have to step away from the pictorial impression and think of the 5 of Pentacles elementally. The Five's are disruptive in general, and in Earth the effect is strain of the kind that builds up right before an earthquake. So if the Ace of Cups is a big gush of emotion (whenever I look at the Thoth Ace I think of someone dropping a water balloon on a sidewalk ), the 5 of Pentacles "feeding it" (as a "friendly" influence) would give the Ace something constructive to "push against" or "shove off from" in a purposeful way. Rather than being soft-focused and "all over the place" emotionally, the Ace becomes determined and driven toward a concrete objective. If the Five shows a state of stressful impasse, the Ace delivers a stroke of enthusiasm, imagination and inspiration to "kick out the jams" (in that old rock & roll expression); it makes me think of the Sun breaking out from behind clouds.

I think it stalls a bit when it bumps up against the 6 of Wands. The Sixes represent a temporary state of equilibrium, but in the impatient, self-interested element of Fire it's more fitful and less centered than otherwise. I can see where Water interacting with its antagonistic opposite, Fire, can create a "drying up" of feelings as more selfish inclinations emerge. But, as I said earlier, the Ace has a bit more inherent "clout" than the Six (being closer to its elemental source), so maybe it won't fare so badly and will have enough "oomph" to win through. In the best sense, this could show emotions winning the tug-of-war with ego issues.

Thanks for your really lengthy response. Ok, so I'm starting to understand how the elements react with each other, but I don't know how it quite relates to the querent'sl question. I can't quite figure out what kind of "feelings" are being dried up, if only slightly. Maybe I'm reading this too early in the morning lol.

Sulis

Hi D Sparkles,

As rwcarter has explained further up in the thread, if you want to discuss the specific reading, Your Readings is the place to post.. Keep this thread just for the discussion of the elemental dignities please.

Barleywine

Sulis said:
Hi D Sparkles,

As rwcarter has explained further up in the thread, if you want to discuss the specific reading, Your Readings is the place to post.. Keep this thread just for the discussion of the elemental dignities please.

OK, I'm done. I was trying to be "instructive" within the context of the example cards, but I agree that the best way to draw comparisons would be to post an exercise in Your Readings that solicits input from both "ED'ers" and "non-ED'ers."

D Sparkles

Sulis said:
Hi D Sparkles,

As rwcarter has explained further up in the thread, if you want to discuss the specific reading, Your Readings is the place to post.. Keep this thread just for the discussion of the elemental dignities please.

Would someone move my thread to Your Readings, please? At the moment, the cards are as clear as mud to me...Many thanks

D Sparkles

Barleywine said:
OK, I'm done. I was trying to be "instructive" within the context of the example cards, but I agree that the best way to draw comparisons would be to post an exercise in Your Readings that solicits input from both "ED'ers" and "non-ED'ers."

Thanks

rwcarter

Moderator Note

D Sparkles said:
Would someone move my thread to Your Readings, please? At the moment, the cards are as clear as mud to me...Many thanks

D Sparkles, I misspoke earlier about moving this thread to Your Readings. As YR is a reading discussion forum, if this thread were moved there all of the ED discussion would need to be removed from it. That's not fair to the people who have responded to this thread so far. If you wish to discuss your reading, then please post a new thread in Your Readings. You can then provide a link to it here in this thread, which will stay open to discuss Elemental Dignities.

rwcarter, co-Moderator of Using Tarot Cards