Study Notes: Chrisitan Astrology

RohanMenon

These are study notes, made as I'm working through Lilly's works, and are written from the point of view of a student (vs an expert astrologer). I'll recast every chart Lilly uses, and for each 'method' learned, will work through a new chart for a similar question. That said, if anyone is following along, you'll need the books. These are just notes, not a full replication.

Expect plenty of questions and requests for clarification from experts astrologers, and hopefully these will help other students working through these (most excellent) books.

Before he gets to specific horary questions and methods in Volume 2, Lilly gives a general outline of his overall method towards the end of Vol 1.

Here are my notes, (and questions where I found Lilly unclear)



" ......
Four ways by which the matter may be bought to pass (I've reorganized these a bit from the original)

I. By applying aspect - essentially, this requires the significators of the querent and quesited to form a classical aspect by application. Each aspect has slightly different requirements as below.

1. Conjunction
If one significator applies to a conjunction with the other, with no prohibition[1] or refranation [2] before the conjunction perfects.

a. If the conjunction were to happen in an angular house, the matter will manifest without hindrance or delay
b. If in a succedent house, not so soon.
c. In a cadent house, with delay and much struggle.

Accidental and essential dignities give testimony to the matter perfecting. Debilities to the contrary.

2. Sextile and Trine
If significators apply to each other by sextile or trine *and* they are in good houses/places of essential dignity, *and* no malefic aspect intervene as the aspect is perfected. ( I assume no prohibition, refranation etc applies as above)

3. Square
If one significator applies to a square aspect to the other, 'things are produced to perfection' *if*

a. each significator has essential dignity
b. and apply out of proper houses (by which I think Lilly means non 6th-8th-12th)
else no dice

4. Opposition
When significators apply to an opposition aspect, things may come to pass, if

a. there is mutual reception by house (does Lilly mean 'sign' here? As far as I know mutual reception is calculated with signs, not houses) and out of friendly houses (so here 'house' means 'house', and not 'sign'?)
b. and the Moon must separate from the significator of the thing demanded (same as quesited?)

Lilly cautions that when significators apply to opposition, even when the 'thing demanded' manifests it is often in such a manner that the recepient wishes it hadn't. Like winning a court case, but spending more in legal fees than the money obtained.

II. By Translation of Light [3]
When the significators are *separating* (so above rules don't apply) from a conjunction, sextile or trine aspect (What happens when separating from square and opposition?) *and*

a. a third planet is in reception with one of the significators
b. separates from *this* significator
c. applies to the other significator by 'conjunction or aspect' (?? any aspect?)
d. *and* this aspect (third planet to second significator) is perfected before this third planet encounters any other aspect

THEN, this third planet is said to translate the virtue of one significator to the other. In practise, this means that a person or circumstance of the nature of the translating (third) planet brings the matter to manifestation.

The house this translating planet rules also provides information on this helping person.

III By Collection of Light

a. The significators don't aspect each other, but
b. they do aspect a 3d planet.
c. Both significators receive this 3d planet in one of their dignities

In such a case a person signified by the collecting planet shall bring the matter to conclusion. Lilly give the example of a neighbor who reconciles two people quarreling. (in this case I suppose the collecting
planet will have some reference to the third house of the chart)

IV. It sometimes happens that (even in the absence of all the above) if the quesited significator is in the 1st house, or a house signifying the quesited (so 10th for a job query, seventh for a relationship query etc)

[ok I am not sure if Lilly says this 'rule of the ancients' holds or not. I think he is saying this does *not* hold, but I am not sure

Minderwiz! help!

]


...."


In the next post on this thread, I'll work through Lilly's first proper horary chart, where he (among other things) calculates the longevity of the querent. Interesting, because most modern astrologers stay clear of 'predicting death'.

Even more interesting is that he answers a whole battery of questions from the same horary chart. Some of these questions are very divergent, but he groups them all under '1st house questions' and gets amazing answers from a single chart.

I'll also be applying this method to another chart from my own practise, to make sure I've absorbed this technique correctly.

Uggh: I can't edit the title. Should have been *Christian* Astrology (there is a typo in the word "Christian")
 

RohanMenon

My present horary procedure

shamelessly copied from Minderwiz's writings here, and which I hope to augment/refine from my studies of Lilly's books.

1. Decide who is the querent. It is either the person asking the question, *or* in a case of person X asking about Y's relationship to/action about/concerning with Z, and X is not directly involved, Y gets the querent position.
The querent gets the first house [A]

2. Decide the quesited house. This again depends on how the question is formulated and also needs thinking through the 'third party lens' above.

3. *Write down* the essential and accidental dignities of each significator, including the aspects they form. As a non expert astrologer, I find that the act of writing these down helps me 'tune into' them. Do a rough 'score' (using Lilly' table for now) of these. Also note which houses each significator rules.

4. Interpret the essential and accidental dignities of the significators. ( I am very bad at this right now)

5. Make a list of aspects previously perfected and to be perfected formed by each significator and the Moon. Solar Fire doesn't do this very well, especially when moeity etc comes into play.

5. Decide if I need to look at more than the siginificator state If so,

Look for (in order), applying aspects between significators (including Moon- my understanding is that the Moon co signifies the querent,), translation of light, collection of light [C] . If none of these apply the matter won't perfect. If any do, then interpret.

6. Try to interpret previous and future aspects of significators + Moon (this is experimental, something I've picked up from Lilly's first horary example)

7. Record (in writing the chart) and any conclusions.

8. If working on a chart from the book or the web, read to see the outcome, to check result against judgement. If outcome is in the future,set a reminder on my cell phone for a point past when the result should be known one way or the other, to check accuracy.

9. Debug if i got it wrong!

[A] In personal work I use Sidereal charts, and Placidus houses. When working through a book, I use whatever the author uses. For Lilly this is Tropical + Regiomontanus houses)

See my question and Minderwiz answer on this thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=264453

[C] Conceptually antiscia seems to be a tropical zodiac only technique. I don't use them in my personal Sidereal chart based work
 

Minderwiz

" ......
Four ways by which the matter may be bought to pass (I've reorganized these a bit from the original)

I. By applying aspect - essentially, this requires the significators of the querent and quesited to form a classical aspect by application. Each aspect has slightly different requirements as below.

1. Conjunction
If one significator applies to a conjunction with the other, with no prohibition[1] or refranation [2] before the conjunction perfects.

a. If the conjunction were to happen in an angular house, the matter will manifest without hindrance or delay
b. If in a succedent house, not so soon.
c. In a cadent house, with delay and much struggle.

Accidental and essential dignities give testimony to the matter perfecting. Debilities to the contrary.

2. Sextile and Trine
If significators apply to each other by sextile or trine *and* they are in good houses/places of essential dignity, *and* no malefic aspect intervene as the aspect is perfected. ( I assume no prohibition, refranation etc applies as above)

3. Square
If one significator applies to a square aspect to the other, 'things are produced to perfection' *if*

a. each significator has essential dignity
b. and apply out of proper houses (by which I think Lilly means non 6th-8th-12th)
else no dice

4. Opposition
When significators apply to an opposition aspect, things may come to pass, if

a. there is mutual reception by house (does Lilly mean 'sign' here? As far as I know mutual reception is calculated with signs, not houses) and out of friendly houses (so here 'house' means 'house', and not 'sign'?)
b. and the Moon must separate from the significator of the thing demanded (same as quesited?)

Lilly cautions that when significators apply to opposition, even when the 'thing demanded' manifests it is often in such a manner that the recepient wishes it hadn't. Like winning a court case, but spending more in legal fees than the money obtained.

Yes proper houses are all but those that are averse to the Ascendant (2, 6. 8 and 12) Now as the second is the succedent house to the first, this is largely mitigated.

On the use of the word house. For English translations and English texts the word is used in two distinct ways.

Firstly to mean the domicile house of a planet. That is what we would now call rulership. Thus Taurus is the House of Venus. This is the prime meaning of the word in Astrology.

Hellenistic Astrologers used the word topos, meaning a place amongst other things. It is from this Greek word that we derive English words such as topography, topic and topical and get the English phrase in Astrology 'topical houses'. In my Hellenistic Astrology course I'm learning to consistently use the terms in those senses. Thus Lilly means the the Sign or domicile of a planet in the context you mention.

This confusing use of the word seems to derive from Latin translations of the Greek.

On oppositions, treat the matter as not being perfected unless there's a mutual reception, etc.


RohanMenon said:
II. By Translation of Light [3]
When the significators are *separating* (so above rules don't apply) from a conjunction, sextile or trine aspect (What happens when separating from square and opposition?) *and*

a. a third planet is in reception with one of the significators
b. separates from *this* significator
c. applies to the other significator by 'conjunction or aspect' (?? any aspect?)
d. *and* this aspect (third planet to second significator) is perfected before this third planet encounters any other aspect

THEN, this third planet is said to translate the virtue of one significator to the other. In practise, this means that a person or circumstance of the nature of the translating (third) planet brings the matter to manifestation.

The house this translating planet rules also provides information on this helping person.

Any aspect will do but again you need to remember that squares or oppositions present difficulties. In effect you would really demand a strong reception for these two, and probably a mutual reception by domicile for the latter.

Lilly allows reception by Domicile, Triplicity or Terms in his text. He must include reception by exaltation as well, as otherwise it doesn't give consistency. So for trines and sextiles, a weak reception will do, for squares and oppositions be a bit more demanding.

There's also a section on friendship, so you might try using friendship between the significators and the third planet as a possible factor.


RohanMenon said:
IV. It sometimes happens that (even in the absence of all the above) if the quesited significator is in the 1st house, or a house signifying the quesited (so 10th for a job query, seventh for a relationship query etc)
[ok I am not sure if Lilly says this 'rule of the ancients' holds or not. I think he is saying this does *not* hold, but I am not sure

Minderwiz! help!

My reading is that Lilly rejects this as a reason for perfection, unless there is also translation of light by the Moon from the significator of the thing demanded (being in the first) and the Lord of the Ascendant.

I tend to work from Sahl and Masha'allah and take the presence of the significator of the questited in the first as an offer. Thus in the case of a relationship horary, the significator of the person whose relationship is sought being in the first, means that he/she also wants a relationship with the querent. However, two things need to be born in mind.

Firstly, quite often such questions are speculative, Will X marry me? often boils down to he/she looks nice, I wonder...

That isn't a strong desire and it may well be that even faced with an offer from X, the relationship is turned down by the querent. Idle speculation should be watched for. If the querent has no obvious interest in the quesited from the chart, even offering the questited on a plate might not be enough.

Secondly even if it's not idle speculation, the querent can have second thoughts. He/she may turn down the offer. So look for signs that the querent really cares about the questited, such as being in major essential dignities of the significator of the quesited.

Having an aspect suggests action and if the querent is prepared to act, then they have an interest, even if it's rather weak.

Incidentally Lilly doesn't mention the significator of the quesited being in it's own house. All that tends to show is that the quesited is 'at home' but gives no evidence of wanting to be found by the querent.

Significator of the love interest in the seventh, says nothing about them wanting the querent and everything about them being interested in themselves. Unless that seventh house has dignities of the Lord of the Ascendant and the quesited is in one of them. Terms or Decan simply show mild interest.
 

RohanMenon

Thank You for the great answer Minderwiz

The last section on "offers" is very thought provoking.
I'm now putting Mashallah and Sahl on my 'to learn' list.
The art so long, the life so short ....

I'm spending a few days memorizing Lilly's basic procedure, so I don't have to look at my notes when faced with a new chart, and then I'll move on to Lilly's first horary chart.

Meanwhile one quick question.

Lilly in his first horary chart seems to openly calculate and convey longevity information (how long will your life be?) to his client

Was this a valid question in medieval/ancient astrology? Morin seems to have calculated his *own* time and mode of death, but this isn't the same as answering a second party.

To make it more clear, is "When and how will I die?" a valid horary question? Or even a natal one?

I ask because I've read that modern astrologers don't deal with this question (probably because it involves doing more than psychobabbling and actually giving a concrete noe heh heh)

And when I asked a local Vedic astrologer, he said it *can* be done (in Vedic, both from the natal chart and a horary chart) but often is not done in practice, because it is the rare (modern) person who can handle the answer appropriately, most people would get scared/depressed, and this creates bad karma for the astrologer. And if you do want to answer this question, you must be sure there are multiple indicators pointing to a specific time and manner. (Lilly says something like this as well)


It seems a great cultural change has taken place in how people relate to death and dying, and the changing mores of astrological practice reflect that.
 

Minderwiz

Lilly in his first horary chart seems to openly calculate and convey longevity information (how long will your life be?) to his client

Was this a valid question in medieval/ancient astrology? Morin seems to have calculated his *own* time and mode of death, but this isn't the same as answering a second party.

To make it more clear, is "When and how will I die?" a valid horary question? Or even a natal one?

I ask because I've read that modern astrologers don't deal with this question (probably because it involves doing more than psychobabbling and actually giving a concrete noe heh heh)

It's certainly a valid natal question. Indeed the length of life calculation is one of the oldest, if not the oldest use of Astrology. Every Hellenistic author has a section devoted to it - Valens has at least three versions. However there is no consistency or agreement between the authors on how the calculation should be performed.

The calculation(s) have one important, if not central derivative. If you can predict the length of a person's life, you can predict events that occur in that life. So out of the length of life calculation(s) comes the use of Quadrant Houses - to identify planetary strength and angularity - and from that comes Primary Directions (and later the short cut to them - Secondary Progressions).

The length of life calculation(s) gave us Predictive Astrology - perhaps a bold statement but essentially, I think it's true.

RohanMenon said:
And when I asked a local Vedic astrologer, he said it *can* be done (in Vedic, both from the natal chart and a horary chart) but often is not done in practice, because it is the rare (modern) person who can handle the answer appropriately, most people would get scared/depressed, and this creates bad karma for the astrologer. And if you do want to answer this question, you must be sure there are multiple indicators pointing to a specific time and manner. (Lilly says something like this as well)

A wise man! Whether you can do it (you can) and whether you should do it are separate questions. As I indicated earlier, there are a whole host of different calculations and methods. In my Hellenistic Astrology course, I've noted how well some predictive methods, such as Zodiacal Releasing have an uncanny ability to highlight potential death moments, which do indeed coincide with death. However which are consistently good and what their success rate would be, I don't know. It would be a rather morbid research project.

You noted modern psychobabblers treating this as an unacceptable branch of Astrology. In part your Vedic Astrology provides their reasoning. The other part is that they insist on always being optimistic and disguise this as being constructive or helpful, when it may not be. Even so, I'd be very reluctant to try the process.

There's two main drawbacks apart for the variety of possible methods. The first is the accuracy required in the birth chart. Primary Directions can be seriously out if the time is out by four or five minutes. Zodiacal Releasing can be out if the Lot of Spirit or Lot of Fortune is near a sign boundary and some form of rectification is needed. The Rectification industry and the production of software packages such as JigSaw are another long term effect of the length of life calculation).

The second drawback to the method, though not necessarily for the person concerned is modern medicine which has the capability of reducing the chances of death, in certain circumstances, quite dramatically. In a real sense we can extend the life span. So medical intervention might well invalidate a prediction. That intervention may appear quite trivial, such as the use of antibiotics prescribed by a GP but antibiotics have had a major effect in the last 50 years or so. That's why, the rise of resistant bacteria is giving such concern.

RohanMenon said:
It seems a great cultural change has taken place in how people relate to death and dying, and the changing mores of astrological practice reflect that.

Yes, that is true. And now we prefer people to die in hospitals or nursing homes, out of sight. Not really evidence of human development.
 

RohanMenon

Thanks MW, very thought provoking as usual.

Hellenistic Astrology (and Zodiacal Releasing in particular) added to my ever expanding list of things to learn!
 

RohanMenon

A small question on applying by opposition

from Vol 1

"Sometimes it happens, that a matter is brought to passe when the Significators have applyed by Opposition, but it hath been, when there hath been mutuall reception by House, and out of friendly Houses, and the
Moon seperating from the Significator of the thing demanded;"

I understand the mutual reception by house, and 'out of friendly houses' these countering somewhat the nature of the opposition aspect.

But what is the importance of the 'moon seperating from the significator of the thing demanded?"

I don't understand this at all.
 

Minderwiz

from Vol 1

"Sometimes it happens, that a matter is brought to passe when the Significators have applyed by Opposition, but it hath been, when there hath been mutuall reception by House, and out of friendly Houses, and the
Moon seperating from the Significator of the thing demanded;"

I understand the mutual reception by house, and 'out of friendly houses' these countering somewhat the nature of the opposition aspect.

But what is the importance of the 'moon seperating from the significator of the thing demanded?"

I don't understand this at all.

If you read on the full wording is:

...and the Moon separating from the significator of the thing demanded and applying presently to the Lord of the Ascendant;

The Moon has aspected the significator of the thing demanded and will next aspect Lord 1. It's a translation of light.
 

RohanMenon

Ahh the *Moon* is the 'translator here. Got it.

Thank You Minderwiz

I have now memorized the basic method of Lilly with all the ifs and buts.

Onward,

The first chart of Lilly can be recreated in modern western circular form by creating a chart for 14:26 hrs on 24 March 1633, London. (the ascendant should be somewhere near 24 Leo 02, just as a check).

The aspects formed by the Moon just before this chart moment are,

10:58 Mar 23 Moon squared Jupiter
17:43 Mar 23 Moon squared Saturn
02:34 Mar 24 Moon squared Mercury

and after

19:33 Mar 24 Moon trine Jupiter
03:54 Mar 25 Moon opposes Mars
13:57 Mar 25 Moon opposes Sun


Repeating the same exercise for Lord of the Ascendant Sun we have
(these are slightly different from the sequence Lilly uses as we'll see)
past
12:08 February 28 Sun square Saturn
05:17 March 05, Sun conjunct Mercury
15:11 March 11, Sun opposes Moon
10:06 March 14, Sun sextile Jupiter
00:23 March 19, Sun conjunct Mars

Future
17:31 March 30, Sun trines Saturn

As we'll see Lilly does some incredible divination with the sequence of these aspects.

and to conclude, here are the horary questions Lilly applies to this chart

"1. If he were like to live long, yea or not.
2. To what part of the world he were best direct his course of life.
3. What part of his life, was in possibility like to be most fortunate.
4. He desired I would relate (if possible by a figure) some of the general
Accidents
had happened unto him already.
5. What Accidents in future he might expect, good or evil.
6. The time when."

[I have a friend visiting for a week and then have some business travel for a couple of days.. I'll try to update this thread in this time, but no guarantees. Rest assured, Lilly's technique *will* be analyzed and digested, then applied to other charts etc]
 

RohanMenon

Analyzing the Ascendant and Lord of Ascendant

Instruction to judge health are as under

Signs of health:
1. See if ascendant (degree), Lord of ascendant and Moon are free from misfortune. Essentially see if it has good essential and accidental dignities.
2. Avoid Conjunction, opposition, square of Lords of Eighth, Sixth, Twelfth
3. Good aspect with Jupiter, Venus , Sun
4. In terms of Jupiter or Venus (so implicitly not in terms of Saturn or Mars?)

Signs of sickness (essentially the contrary of the above)
1. Lord of the ascendant under the sunbeams
2. Moon cadent and/or receiving square and oppostion aspects from Lords of 8th, 12th, 6th
3. South Node, Saturn or Mars in ascendant or 7th house, retrograde or peregrine, or in detriment, or conjunct the ascendant, or the Moon, or Lord of the Ascendant.
4. FIxed star of the nature of the Lords of 8th, 12th, 6th, conjunct

then judge the querent as not long lived, near some danger, or undergo misfortune of some kind.

These boil down to examining the essential and accidental dignities of the Ascendant degree, Ascendant Lord, and Moon, with attention paid to good/bad apects from Lords of 6th, 8th, 12th. (In his analysis Lilly ignores one such aspect, as we'll see)



So let us do that now.

Chart created for 24 March 1633 14:26 hrs, Londor

Lord of the Ascendant: Sun @ 04 Aries 11
Lord of the 6th: Saturn
Lord of the 8th: Jupiter
Lord of the 12th: Sun

Ascendant (24 Leo 02)

Essential Dignities
Domicile: Sun
Exaltation: None
Triplicity: Sun (daytime chart, fire sign)
Term: Jupiter (note: these are not the Chaldean terms, which is what I normally use)
Decan: Mars
Aspects:
1. square Jupiter (note: Lord of the 8th)


Sun (Lord of the Ascendant - 04 Aries 11 )
Essential Dignities
Domicile: Mars
Exaltation: Sun
Triplicity: Sun
Term: Jupiter
Decan: Mars
Aspects:
conjunct Mars
trine Saturn


Accidental Dignities
Angularity: Succedent (8th House)
House Located: 8th
Houses Ruled: 1st, 12th

So the ascendant and Lord of the ascendant have good dignities. The Sun (LoA) in particular is highly dignified.

and here we have our first discrepancy.

Lilly asks us (instructions above) to see if either the ascendant or lord of the ascendant is having a square or opposition aspect to the Lords of the 8th or 12th. As far as I can see the Lord of the Ascendant does have a square aspect to Jupiter (Lord of the 8th). But Lilly ignores this.
Both Sun and Ascendant are in the terms of Jupiter. (again good, in the universal sense, Jupiter is a benefic. bad in that Jupiter *is* lord of the 8th)

So, modulo the Lord of 8th square, and the fact that the LoA Sun is located in the 8th house, this chart shows the ascendant and Lord of Ascendant to be quite dignified. So I think we can (as of now, from this factors only) predict that the querent will be long lived.

The Moon is not cadent, and not receiving difficult aspects from Lord of 6th, 8th, 12th. So another indicator of longevity.

Ascendant is conjunct Cor Leonis. Another good testimony.

Ok I don't understand why 'terms' are so important, and why in terms, only the universal significances are processed. Eg terms of Jupiter and Venus are assumed good, though Jupiter is, in this chart, lord of the 8th.

When should we look at terms? If Mars or Saturn rule the terms, is the longevity considered reduced?