Umbrae's Relationship Spread Study

Umbrae

Okay – let’s take this reading apart!

But first I want to tell you how I read. When I read, it comes from a spiritual basis. There is a lot of feel – which overshadows ‘meaning’. Reading is an event. And the event of reading is never discussed. We discuss spreads and meanings and mechanics…but rarely the event.

I don’t know the principals involved here, I didn’t even lay the cards, so I can only go by what the Tarot tells me. And how it tells me (which may vary). When I discuss the cards here, they are in a specific context – the lives of two very real people. The same cards laid out for two different people would not read the same. There is no real mathematical formula for how the cards ‘twist’ with each reading. But they do.

The reading looks okay (based on feedback) until I begin to discuss how the 5 of Pentacles and The Magician are balanced. Time passes as I stare at my computer screen. More time passes. How do I describe this?

How do they feel. The 5 feels anxious, The Magician feels calm (but there is an underlying tone here – think of le Bateleur…he’s a juggler, a showman). So we have this Magician in a red robe that’s ill fitting and he’s a tad uncomfortable/silly. He seems to tell us, “Fumum Vendidi” (“I sold smoke”). So on one side is this liquid light frantic and on the other is a calm silliness disguising (“Uncomfortable in his own skin”)…They have this quality to them…they are both uncomfortable feeling cards (in this specific instance)…and when you ‘connect’ or ‘hinge’ them to the Emperor, it’s like he puts his arms around each of them and says, “There there now, it’s all better. Come warm yourselves by the fire in my great-hall…do you play chess?”

Controlling is most likely a communicative error on my behalf in attempting describe certain aspects of Person 2, it’s use carries pejorative connotations – which is not my intention. Now my mother was controlling – she had passive aggressive to an art form, but that’s another story.

In discussing the presence of the 5 of Pentacles on Row Two, WhiteRaven said, ”Way Off”, but earlier stated ”Dead On plus more”, so I don’t know if you’re disagreeing with my pairing with the Magician or the reason, or guilt induced motive behind the self punishment.

”Way off” on the 3 of Cups, I can handle that, but hold that in the back of the mind…

Then it all falls into confusion when I talk about emotions crossing over.
We are looking at emotions as things here. We know they are not. But think about ‘looking at a relationship’…we are looking at emotions.
And there is this flow…from The Magician to the 5 of Pentacles…and where does it flow to? It doesn’t ‘fit’ with the 2 of Swords. But the 2 of Swords seems to fit as an end card for Person 2, but unfulfilled ending card if the ‘flow’ of energy from The Magician to the 5 of Pentacles does not ‘go’ anyplace. The ‘flow’ ends at the 8 of Swords. And as a reading, as an event, it ‘feels’ right.

But how do I explain what I’m looking at and ‘feeling’. This is kinda like explaining the Moonlight Sonata to someone…well you have these kind of not really triplets doing this boring da-da-da up here and these ominous bass tones but they don’t sound ominous cuz of the da-da-da and all of the sudden you get this ‘Dee-Dee-Dee’ and it just blends…”

With that in mind, how do I explain this crossover of emotion…that Person 1 could very well begin punishing themselves for whatever reason…and that if they do that they will be living a lie and miss the boat!

Look at column 2. It has flow right straight down. It feels good. It feels strong. It feels like it could stand a thousand years as long as Person 1 & 2 would just leave it well enough alone…and it ends on an odd note…an uncomfortable balance…but it works.

And that’s no help. So I’ll try it this way.

Let’s say the 7 of Cups is delusion, fantasy…what does the Bateleur or The Magician provide? Illusion. They balance.

Can we think of some examples that don’t balance? Chariot and 4 of Cups, Death and the 3 of Pentacles comes to mind.

Does that help? I realize I’ve rambled around a lot, sorry about that…
 

WhiteRaven

I'm too close to this situation and I know the two people too well to see this and to understand properly how to read this spread. So can we just start over with cards that you (Umbrae) choose where there is no association whatsoever so I don't get things all confused and sit here and say no no no that's not right...cuz I don't care at this point what the cards are saying and incidently this couple is now in a platonic relationship and that's been for quite some time...

I just want to learn how to do this and as soon as I read the "flow", I lost the concept because I know these two too well.

Do you think this would be better Umbrae?
 

WhiteRaven

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The 5 of Pentacles in the Needs/Wants/Now area. Okay…so the LWB talks about poverty but we are discussing feelings. Thinking of Fives as Givurah, this card, in this space, is about self induced punishment. It’s a dark card here – unresolved issues of the past would be strongly indicated IMHO.

Dead on plus more....

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Dead on because of unresolved issues from wayyyy back. The "more" is the way I look at the 5 of Pents in this situation as her "wanting" to be left alone...because she "needs" to heal those past issues to be able to have a solid foundation in a relationship...This is causing a feeling of lonliness that IS "self-inflicting". She's feeling a huge loss.


Row two is the Dark Card. The 5 of Pentacles. Does Person 2 need to punish themselves? They sure feel they do. But it’s a want. A guilt. It’s paired with The Magician. WAY OFF
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The "way off" here is I don't see her as punishing herself. The feeling of lonliness is self-inflicted because she's withdrawing for healing purposes and the fact that she's been hurt so many times in the past AND the last relationship before this one, she opened completely and ended up getting hurt so that basically put the cork in the bottle for any future with anyone unless she withdraws and does some serious inner work.

Does that make more sense as to why I said on and then way off?
 

WhiteRaven

Here's another suggestion....what if I post my entire interpretation of the spread and you work through it and tell me where I'm going wrong or where I'm going right...or do you want to continue with what we already have now so far?

I'm just trying to find ways so you don't get frustrated with me because I'm having a heck of a time with this... :(
 

zorya

one of the reasons i like and use this spread so often, is that while you lay the cards out in a particular order, it was purposely designed not to be read in a 1, 2, 3... order.

like life, in which all things are connected and all things have many relationships, here too, the cards are connected in multiple ways and have many relationships.

they relate as a whole.. what stands out, what is there an abundance of, what is lacking?

they relate in columns and rows.

they relate to cards that are at an angle to them.

every card relates to every other card.

each column and position have many levels and depths to explore. the postion of 'feels' can also be read as 'past'. feelings are based in past experiences. needs and wants are about the present. expected outcome is about hopes and the future. ... and the positions are just guidelines.

let's look at rows; person a's hopes or needs are effected by person b's. the relationship has it's own story to tell, but is of course, also made up of person a and person b.

each position effects another. the past effects the present. the past effects ones hopes. the expected outcome is effected by each person's needs...together and separately.

so we can read up, down, across... at an angle. we can skip cards. how does person a's past effect person b's expected outcome? it does!

generally speaking... a card next to another card will have a stronger influence than one card's relationship with another card that has a card between them.... generally speaking. there are exceptions... for example, a situation where cards that are of the same suit or all majors might be an exception... or it might not, lol.

up down, across, sideways..... i find this spread works best by calling it as i see it, the way i see it, not by reading positions in a particular order.
 

WhiteRaven

This is not good for someone with logical thinking...maybe this is my problem.

I mean...I'm a programmer....so my way of thinking is up and down or across...or both...but that's about as far as this programmed Raven get go...the idea or concept of crossing and uncrossing just because of the "feeling" doesn't help me understand how to use this spread because I don't see the connections like Umbrae sees them...possibly because I know the both of them...possibly because I'm part of the past with both of them and they can both carry guilt over where I sit in this situation...

there are many factors within this particular spread that I can see clearly yet someone that doesn't know anything would think otherwise.
 

Aoife

Why and how this spread works for me:

The theory:
A relationship between two people is a living, dynamic entity. It can be looked at in isolation... but it is never in isolation, it is constantly under assault from the past, present and projections into the future... not only those of the two people concerned but also influenced by people, circumstances and events surrounding them. [And hence, as others have better explained, the cards can be read separately but to truly understand they have to be read interactively].

Healthy relationships are able to maintain equilibrium, balancing the ‘pushes, pulls and pressures’ constantly at work. Action and reaction stay within acceptable bounds.
Troubled or failing relationships will show ‘pushes, pulls and pressures’ of a such a degree that equilibrium is lost or dangerously distorted.
It is the pushes, pulls and pressures that this spread demonstrates so clearly.

The practice:
After laying out the cards, and feeling the mood of the spread, I lift them [in my mind’s eye] to my middle distance vision. The borders of the cards usually disappear and I am left with three-dimensional images. I then watch them move and interact. If I’m well enough tuned in, I will be able to feel the pulls, pushes and pressures between the images. I then try to factor in what I know of number, suit element, pattern and archetypal imagery. Only then do I relate back to the card positions. [Of course in reality all of this is happening at the same time, if not consciously certainly subliminally.]

Sounds difficult? I certainly find it so.... and I’m aware that I am only touching the tip of the iceberg that Tarot has to offer. But even the glimpses... the fleeting impressions are usually enough to give me something useful to convey. And everytime I use this spread I learn something new.

The provisos:
~ I would never do this spread with a deck I was not very familiar with, and I personally find pip minors much clearer than illustrated ones.
~ Fwiw I find it very difficult to read this spread when I am one of the querents.
~ Feedback will inevitably be skewed [unless both people are present for the reading and giving honest feedback].
~ Interestingly, whilst it is undoubtedly an advanced spread, I’ve also found it often speaks very clearly to people who know little or nothing about tarot.
 

Imagemaker

I am left with three-dimensional images. I then watch them move and interact. If I’m well enough tuned in, I will be able to feel the pulls, pushes and pressures between the images

Fascinating technique! I particularly see how this could help in the rows of this spread--one person on each side and how the relationship emerges. Will try!
 

Umbrae

Hmmm where to begin…

Someplace I once said that for me to describe using this spread was like trying to explain my arm…

I’ve screwed up. I went on discussing how I read. Not how others may read or use this spread. I made a jump when I should have strolled….

It is my belief that: we cannot see emotions. They are intangible. We may see their results (both good and bad), but the emotions themselves remain elusive to quantification. We talk about how we feel and attempt to quantify it “I love you, deeper than the ocean – wider than the sky…” It still remains immeasurable.

So we have to step out of left-brain thinking, and step into right-brain thinking. In some ways this resembles more art appreciation than anything else.

We have 10 cards. When viewed as columns, they represent the two principals…through time. And the relationship…through time.

Yet it remains a snapshot (of a dynamic) – and shows probabilities.

Oh…can’t see time either…another intangible…like attempting to look at a relationship (A result of emotions of two people through time).

Re-read the prior 4 paragraphs about five times.

You cannot reason this. Left-braining may not help.

There is a push-pull between the 10 cards, individually and collectively. There is interplay amongst the pasteboards. That interplay is a metaphor for the emotions of the principals, though time…and how they dance together in the metaphor which we call, a relationship.

Whereas one may read the outer columns as individual PPF spreads and the Center as a PPF spread and the rows as causes and effects – the relationships of the cards is where I found the real power (and why I made up this spread).

Relationships between people are not static photographs, they (the individuals) push and pull, and the emotions push and pull, and the intellectual interplay pushes and pulls.

As I use the cards as spiritual symbolism – I kinda ‘get into’ the cards. This is not a logical process. From an intellectual standpoint it could be viewed as imaginative – with my approach it becomes spiritual imagination. I ‘feel’ the push and pull of the cards…and invite you to do the same…

And this will be frustrating and/or confusing if a person is from a different school of Tarot.

If – one is from a more formulaic approach, read the outer columns as individual PPF spreads and the Center as a PPF spread and the rows as causes and effects. Then read from the center out…and then the outer cards (paired). Look for things that seem to ‘fit’ and things that are polar opposites (an example would be The Chariot paired with a 4 of Cups).

Sometimes, the entire 10 card spread will hinge on one or two cards.

Sometimes the entire spread just screams at you.

You will want to lay out the two above referenced spreads and spend some time studying them.

More later…
 

firemaiden

Umbrae et al, can you talk a little bit more of the cause and effect relationship of the rows?

For example, do you mean that you Person A's "feelings" card could be the result (and/or cause) of the Person B's feelings card? or.. that the center column is the result of both A-feelings and B-feelings cards? or both? you read outside in and inside out and across? all ways?