The Devil revisited

Richard

It has always looked to me like an upside down 4 (Jupiter). It's quite a stretch to make it out as Saturn.
 

agent199

Actually, the symbol looks very reminiscent to the characters found in the old grimoires.
 

Abrac

I'm cautiously optimistic I've found the answer!

In Regardie's Golden Dawn book, there are two sections, <144> THE GARDEN OF EDEN BEFORE THE FALL and <150> THE GARDEN OF EDEN AFTER THE FALL. In both, reference is made to a "Cross of Four Rivers."

In <144>:

"Thus the Rivers form a Cross and on it the GREAT ADAM, the SON who is to rule the nations..."

and <150>:

"And it became necessary that a Second Adam should arise to restore the System, and thus, as ADAM had been spread on the Cross of the Four Rivers, so the Second ADAM should be crucified on the Infernal Rivers..." (italics mine).

Cross of Four Rivers

All this in two lectures dealing with the Garden of Eden seems too much to be coincidental. It looks plain to me that there are four rivers, or tributaries of one main river that turns into the arm of a cross.

If the element of Water is attached to this symbol, the other three become clear in a balanced and harmonious way. Fire, which is the torch, corresponds to the male side; and Water corresponds to the female side. "Mercury" is Air and the "Altar" is Earth.

Devil w/elemental attributions

As I said, I'm cautiously optimistic since it's been a very tough nut to crack, but this looks more promising than anything so far, to me at least. Love to hear your feedback. :)
 

agent199

Nice work ... Tarot Detective :)

I will admit, my first impression was that the pieces do seem to fit.
But then again, I don't have any knowledge with regards to the GD System.
 

ravenest

I dont see that all ... sorry Abrac, it seems a stretch because;

1) The sign on the hand looks more like the one on my hand than a cross of four rivers.

2) I see a vague connection with the apocolpse and the Devil but no real connection for the link you're making.


I'm cautiously optimistic I've found the answer!

In Regardie's Golden Dawn book, there are two sections, <144> THE GARDEN OF EDEN BEFORE THE FALL and <150> THE GARDEN OF EDEN AFTER THE FALL. In both, reference is made to a "Cross of Four Rivers."

3) Yes, that's correct but how does that relate to the pattern on the hand? I see three little lines at the bottom going into the main line and four coming out the top. That does not form a cross of four rivers ... to my eye. Further over where the big line crosses, thats more like a cross. The rivers come out of DAATH and then split into 4 'heads', the shape of that isnt like what is on the hand?

In <144>:

"Thus the Rivers form a Cross and on it the GREAT ADAM, the SON who is to rule the nations..."

and <150>:

"And it became necessary that a Second Adam should arise to restore the System, and thus, as ADAM had been spread on the Cross of the Four Rivers, so the Second ADAM should be crucified on the Infernal Rivers..."

4. But there is more to this quote ; " ... be crucified on the Infernal Rivers of this four armed cross of DEATH." The shape on the hand is not a four armed cross of death.


All this in two lectures dealing with the Garden of Eden seems too much to be coincidental. It looks plain to me that there are four rivers, or tributaries of one main river that turns into the arm of a cross.

5. Sorry but I cant see the coincidience??? The GD lifted (and quoted) a lot from the Bible ... not always accuratly. The rivers of Eden come from an old race memory that was imported into Mesopotamia where the Jews in Exile picked it up and sourced their stories of creation, the Garden of Eden, the four rivers, a Homeland for Abraham ,,, etc. The garden of Eden (or 'paradise' from an old Iranian word) was the original homeland (where the Indians had their beloved and , after they moved lost, Soma) of the Proto-Indo Europeans; before the split into Indians and Iranians and Vedanta and Avesta. The four rivers originally defined a geographical location. Its in the Palyma region and satellite
photos show some resemblance to the old Buddhist pictures of Shamballa (western Shangri-la)

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm

And section of the site shows the region in detail (recently updated with great new pics!)


http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/tajikistan/page3.htm#boundaries

Some maps and good links here; maybe on one of them you WILL find that shape (but it looks more like 7 little tributaries feeding a larger one to me ... but good luck anyway ;) )

If the element of Water is attached to this symbol, the other three become clear in a balanced and harmonious way. Fire, which is the torch, corresponds to the male side; and Water corresponds to the female side. "Mercury" is Air and the "Altar" is Earth.

Devil w/elemental attributions

As I said, I'm cautiously optimistic since it's been a very tough nut to crack, but this looks more promising than anything so far, to me at least. Love to hear your feedback. :)

My feedback is that it is hand print ... and it relates to some idea or symbol that more directly relates to the 'devil' concept from the past (like the crooked little finger on the left hand that some have 'inherited'.)
 

Abrac

From Regarie's Golden Dawn, <114>:

"And a River Naher went forth out of Eden, namely from the Supernal Triad, to water the Garden (the rest of the Sephiroth), and from thence it was divided into Four Heads in Daath, whence it is said 'In Daath the Depths are broken up and the clouds drop down dew.'"

and <115>:

"And thus do the Rivers of Eden form a cross, and on that Cross the Great ADAM, the Son who was to rule the Nations with a Rod of Iron, is extended from Tiphareth and his arms stretch out to Gedulah (Chesed) and Geburah..."

The River Naher appears to be the curved line that follows the life line, and the Four Heads branch off of it. The cross is a four-armed crucifix. I believe the symbol has been stylized somewhat to fit into the Devil's palm, so it's not exactly as it might appear on the Tree of Life, but Waite has incorporated all the elements necessary to convey the doctrine, which closely associates the Rivers, the Crucifix and the Restoration. This doctrine must be part of what The Hierophant conceals.

Whether or not the Golden Dawn's doctrine is historically accurate or not doesn't really matter, it's what they taught and it's what influenced Waite. I don't really understand all of the GD's doctrine involved, but the more I look into it, the more satisfied I am with this solution. Still open to thoughtful counterarguments though. :)
 

ravenest

Well .... the counterargument would be;

How far are you going to take this 'stylized'? Its more likely to be a stylized reversed Jupiter symbol.

But whatever ... if you want it to be the 4 rivers in STYLIZED form there really isnt a counter argument is there ;)
 

ravenest

I meant to add;

Whether or not the Golden Dawn's doctrine is historically accurate or not doesn't really matter, it's what they taught and it's what influenced Waite.

Yes, I see your point. I wasnt adding info to show that Waite should have considered otherwise - just as subsidary info about these four rivers (Waite or GD would not have had the acess to this info anyway ... let alone satellite maps .... only maps made from flights 'on the astral' ;) )
 

Zephyros

I'm inclined to agree it looks like Jupiter, although I can't understand why it would be. On the BOTA the symbol is clearly Saturn, which makes sense. Finding a justification for Jupiter, however, would involve complicated mirroring of Chesed, perhaps Fortune... and I can probably bullsh*it a reason for Jupiter, expert at the art that I am, but it still seems like rape.

It also makes me think of the Gnostic doctrine of portraying the demiurge as the villain, and the snake as the redeemer, something Waite was no doubt familiar with, although I doubt he actually subscribed to it.
 

ravenest

Interesting pic here showing Devil palm;
http://tarotcardmeanings.tarotsigna...ads/2011/09/classic_palm_devil-tarot-card.jpg

The Palmistry reading would be the heart and head joined and crossed with the intuition.
Cheiro gives an example of a river with four heads (on the palm);
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20480/20480-h/images/fig099.jpg

Here is an interesting Google search;
‘What does a palm reading of the devil on one hand mean?’

Here; http://handanalysis.com/simian.html

the line straight across is the ‘simian line’.