Wondering: A short list of Marseille conundrums...

Major Tom

ihcoyc said:
The problem is, there really isn't an elegant English equivalent for bâtons, which covers a great deal of sematic space in English: stick, pole, rod, club. cudgel, bat, staff.
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"Baton" is a perfect acceptable English equivalent isn't it? :confused:

ihcoyc said:
A similar problem exists with deniers; "coins" is barely adequate. A denier was originally a denarius, a Roman penny. The form of the word best nativized in English is "dinar." A "penny" might be a better translation --- better yet if you can envision a large old English penny before the Vile Scourge of Decimalism swept them away.
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I kind of like the idea of calling the suite Dinars. :) But I can't see it ever becomming popular. I think we're probably stuck with Coins. ;)

ihcoyc said:
"Wands" and especially "pentacles" rub some the wrong way, I think, mostly because they smack of magickal obfuscation, lend a false grandeur to the humble objects that are the suit tokens, and assume a whole system that ain't necessarily so.
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I can see the reasons for objecting to 'wands' and pentacles' but nonetheless we are in need of English translations. I prefer to use batons and coins.

Then, of course, we have the problem with epees... :laugh: An epee is a sword of course, but a specific type of sword used in fencing competitions to this day. In fencing with epees, you only score with the tip of the blade, the same is true of the foil, only the sabre scores with the sharp edges of the blade. Here's a link with a diagram: http://www.saxonfc.fsnet.co.uk/epee.htm

The interesting part is that the sword pictured on the Ace and courts in most Marseille decks is actually a sabre. The circular blades depicted on the pips recall the scimatar. So maybe 'swords' isn't too bad a translation after all. :laugh:
 

Anna

Rusty Neon: I am assuming that when you speak about "the organizers," you mean me, since I am the person who up until recently has started the majority of the threads and scaned in all the images.

I feel like we have had this conversation a few times already, but prehaps I didn't make myself very clear? To post scans of 78 cards takes a long long time, but for the purposes of our group and our study needs it was well worth the effort! At the time of scanning the ONLY deck I had was the Hadar. If my sister's ability to translate French holds, I will be getting a Heron Conver deck for christmas :):) If I get the oppportunity, I shall scan that deck too. It would serve our study needs greatly to be able to compare differences within the cards, but please appreciate the time it would take for me to complete such a task again.

My intention is not to be Hadar-centric. It was and still is, to give people a chance to explore the Marseilles tradition for themselves. Marseilles plural. Its about challenging the stereotype that our beloved Marseilles decks are ugly and unreadable, and that you need an IQ of over 1,000 to study it. I used to think this way until I tried it for myself, and I can't even put into words the sense of wonder and awe that I felt in my first readings.

There is more that unites us than there is divides us, is there not?
 

Rusty Neon

Diana said:
Elf: I personally dislike the Fournier. Most people love it though. Use it, enjoy it... if you like it. The more I look at it, the more I dislike it.

...

I think I'm the only one on the forums who thinks this is a lousy Marseilles deck and I will never use it.
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:) ROFOL. LOL. Diana ... You've made my morning. Change the references to "Fournier" in the above two passages to "Hadar" and those passages could express my feelings about the Hadar deck. :) However, in my case, my concerns with the Hadar deck are also about the substantive changes that Hadar made, not just aesthetics. It is a disservice to recommend the Hadar deck to a newcomer to Marseille who wants to get in touch with the historical Marseille tradition that a mainstream Marseille deck could do for the newcomer. After all, people are being encouraged to come to the Marseille for its link to tarot tradition and the Marseille tradition, not to see Hadar changes/additions to (and mixtures of) the historical card design patterns when the newcomer hasn't yet been seen the historical card design patterns themselves. The newcomer needs to see the Conver/Grimaud patterns and the Dodal pattern to make sense of the Hadar deck and to see Hadar's changes/additions/mixings.

The word is "Marseilles" though. Not "Bologna" or "Visconti".
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The Lo Scarabeo "Ancient Tarot of Bologna" would, in my view, be perfectly OK to use for readings and discussion in the Let's Marseille threads. The Bologna's images follow the imagery of the 1760 Conver TdM pattern.

As long as we stay in the Marseilles tradition, why... someone can even scan the FOURNIER cards, :eek: :eek: :eek: if they feel so inclined.
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Diana ... LOL again. I would have enjoyed your colourful posting style if the Let's Marseille threads had adopted the Fournier deck, rather than the Hadar deck, as the official scans link deck.
 

Diana

Rusty NeonDiana ... LOL again. I would have enjoyed your colourful posting style if the Let's Marseille threads had adopted the Fournier deck, rather than the Hadar deck, as the official scans link deck.
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Personally, what counts for me is that more and more people are using the Marseilles deck. In time, they will teach THEMSELVES which deck they like, which they don't, and what speaks to them and what doesn't.

I'm just happy that the Marseilles tradition is no longer seen on Aeclectic as some kind of oddity and some kind of fossilised frenchified elite way of reading.

People see now that it is ALIVE. And as young and spritely as it was all those hundreds of years ago. That the message it conveys is still VALID for today... and that it fits in so beautifully with the universe we live in in the 21st Century.

I couldn't care which deck was scanned... even if it were the Camoin, I would still be rejoicing.

What I love more than ANYTHING in the Tarot, is the Tarot of Marseilles. And I really log-on to Aeclectic these days with something to look forward to. A place where I can actually share my love of the USAGE of the Marseilles, and not just its historical aspects.

The Tarot of Marseilles has burst into life due to CharmingPixie's inspiration and effort. I think it's most ungrateful of you, Rusty Neon, to not give her credit for what she has achieved.

If you want to scan the Camoin cards, one can buy scanners that cost barely more than a Tarot deck, or a book. And then we can put the scans up as a Sticky in our trial sub-forum. Or you can find a link to a web-site that has them all up on their web-site.

If someone wants to scan the Fournier deck, they are welcome.

Same for the Grimaud, and the Conver and for the whatever.
 

Jewel-ry

Rusty, I think you will find that the reason it is the Hadar that is scanned, is because it was the only deck that CP had. It is mostly for use by those who want to join in but don't have a deck. IMO this was an extremely generous and thoughtful addition to the thread and I am sure it takes a lot of time to organise.

I don't even think I name my deck each week, I just pick one and use it. Using them seems to be more beneficial than arguing about which one we should use! I have used my Hadar, Fournier and even my Camoin for the Lets Marseilles readings.

BTW elf, the Fournier is a deck which I really like to handle (best deck I have ever shuffled). I know the colours are vibrant but the deck is a Marseilles type deck and of a size which is more easily transported around.

The Marseilles study group/reading exchange is an excellent effort by various people to bring Marseilles decks and their usage into the open. Its great to be able to practise reading with these cards and I am sure that many others will join in as we go along, and they will all use different decks.

:)
 

ihcoyc

Major Tom said:
"Baton" is a perfect acceptable English equivalent isn't it? :confused:
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To me, "baton" means one of three things: a conductor's stick; the rubber tipped metallic thingies that are twirled by drum majorettes in the marching band formation performances that used to be on during the college (gridiron) football games half-time instead of the inane sportscaster prattle that they now show; or the similar stick that's used in relay racing.

These associations mean that "baton" doesn't work particularly well for me.
 

ihcoyc

Rusty Neon said:
That could certainly work for the King of Batons.
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The ceremonial staff may well work for the King of Batons; not sure how well it works for the Ace.
 

Diana

The Ace provides the Baton.

The Valet holds the raw Baton - still a branch. He has to carve it. As an apprentice and a servant, that's his job.
The Knight carries the the polished Baton to the court.
The Queen and the King hold the Baton that show their status and their function.
 
Page of Swords and David Info on Camoin's Reprinting?