Is the Tarot Pre-Christian?

The crowned one said:

Thanks for the general directed kind words Huck, I am comfortable, just have nothing to add.

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That's good, that you feel comfortable ... me actually would have found maybe 20 questions in my own written short post above perhaps only some years ago ...

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"Michelino deck" [What's this?], Boiardo Tarocchi poem [What's this?] and Sola Busca Tarocchi [What's this?] are facts of Tarot history in 15th century, one can't discuss them away.

Christian figures appear in the so-called standard Tarot, they are also present. Naturally all decks somehow mirror their "own specific time", and with that I mean not "15th century" generally, but more precise dates.

Sola Busca would have been very unlikely for 1450 (no copperplate engraving [Did you know, that this was copperplate engraving?], very different in sexual behavior [What's the guy is thinking of?]) or for 1497 (time of prohibition in Florence [Was there a prohibition in Florence? Which?]and Ferrara [Was there a prohibition in Florence? Which?]) for instance. Boiardo Tarocchi (likely 1487 [Why 1487?], "women are better than men" [Who said that?]) reflects a position, which became popular in Ferrara ca. 1485 []Why and how?], not before.
Filippo Maria had been "very modern" [Was he?], so it was possible to create the Michelino deck c. 1425[Why this date?], but Filippo Maria was attacked publicly in this time by San Bernardino [Did he? Which context?]. And the Michelino deck meets the relative new enthusiasm about the import of Greek manuscripts [, likely not accidently, but by by causal relation.


We don't know all and everything about playing cards in 15th century. There might have been also games with Saints. In the Rosselli [Who's that?] inventory from 1528 [What happened then?] there was printing material for a game with 12 apostles, as far I remember. Ringmann [Who's that?]used figures on cards to teach Latin grammar 1509. Murner [Who's that?]made cards to teach logic (1507) and cards, which show heraldic (1502)[Did he really make two card games?]. In Strassburg and Mainz printers [Who?] used playing cards for divination (1505) [Oh, really?] in the popular form of lot books.

In the new Italian book "Castello di Tarocchi" Andrea Vitali shows some cards, which were made with woodcuts from the Schedel'sche Weltchronik 1493. [How do they look? Which topics?]

... .-) ... Chess figures (as paintings or engravings) also had a specific iconography [Do you know some?].
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Well, if you've an answer to 10-20% of the questions, you're a rather promising beginner

If you've an answer to about 40% you're really good

If you can answer about 70% you're fantastic

If you has some opinion about 80-90% ... you belong to very few persons that do so ..

If you say, that you know 100 % ... that looks rather impossible, it seems, you're a liar ... .-)



from "Il Castello dei Tarocchi", Andrea Vitali etc.., 2010

... I guess, you don't know that

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A Forum is a process, which consists of dialogs. If we wish to publish in single authorship, we can publish on websites or books.

And for dialogs there is the rule, that, where there are no questions, there are no answers ... although naturally the questions exist and the answers possibly also, but just momentary not in this dialog.

No dialogs make an empty lifeless forum.

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That mirrors luckily and actually not the state of Tarot History research ... there were considerable advances in the past 10 years ... ... but it has developed some ivory tower phenomenon, which must be broken by a little more communication.

Huck said:

A Forum is a process, which consists of dialogs. If we wish to publish in single authorship, we can publish on websites or books.

And for dialogs there is the rule, that, where there are no questions, there are no answers ... although naturally the questions exist and the answers possibly also, but just momentary not in this dialog.

No dialogs make an empty lifeless forum.

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Aye Huck- but you have to be generous in sharing- and there is not generosity out there sometimes. You and a few others are generous. I thank you and some who have gone before.
I think maybe I do not have any reputation to uphold- that makes life easy for me..... I am a 30%'er
~Rosanne

Huck said:

That's good, that you feel comfortable ... me actually would have found maybe 20 questions in my own written short post above perhaps only some years ago ...

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I had little to say because of what you posted that I considered objective I agreed with, and your subjective, I was open to. I am less inclined to ask, but rather if I see a point of interest or something I do not agree with I look into it when I have time ( tarot history specifically is only a hobby for me, an offshoot of other interests ) and then I would post my thoughts.


Copper engraving with hand painting? Sure, I guess that tells us it was created later then 1430 or so and likely earlier the 1820. That single fact I think anyone would accept. Then we can build off of that. Given the decks accepted date based an all the attributes assigned to it, copper makes sense.

I find that there is a fair bit of shoe horning that goes on in all historical information, how many books on the same subject have you read that have completely different idea's or conclusions as to the why and where? ( with the exception of perhaps commerce as we do have lots of actual physical tangible objects ledgers, letters to read) Through commerce we really get into the heads of day to day life in history, if we can identify the materials, objects and their use.

Often it seems to me we are deriving objects back to fit our personal idea's but I guess that is a characteristic of history. Studying copies of copies of copies, yet we can't keep a sentence straight at camp around the diner table, whispered in an ear.

I wonder how many people could list the names of the parts of a horseless carriage? Yet those words were common only 150 years ago. I wonder how many would recognize the components for what they are, as a percent? 20, 30, 40? History is very subjective and I think it is important to be open minded within the boundaries of our understanding of the period in question.

You Huck are obviously a great resource. If I have a question I will not hesitate to ask, if I have a opinion I will not hesitate to have you critique it. Thank-you for sharing your understanding of the subject.

Thank you, Rosanne and Huck, with your encouragements perhaps I will give this a try. Just to see if I could do it, I worked for quite a while exploring "recognizable" aspects of the Tarot in ancient sources. Finally, I focused in on Ancient Egyptian, because so much of the earlier material has been obliterated by time (with help from opposition forces). Think of the forces later brought to bear against the Manicheans! So, here is a little of what I found of interest, incomplete to be sure, and in no particular order.

Monthu "Nomad" (the old sun god)
VIIII Le Hermite LEO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monthu

Due to the precession of the equinoxes, the vernal equinox 'moved' from Leo to Aries, from Monthu to Amun.

Amun (the new sun god)
later associated with the ram
V Le Pape ARIES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun

Others which may be seen:

Thoth XII Le Pendu LIBRA
Tefnut XIIII Temperance SCORPIO
Isis X La Roue de Fortune VIRGO
Sopdet XVIIII Le Soliel PISCES
Maat VIII Justice CANCER
Anubis XVI La Maison Dieu CAPRICORN

Khonsu VII Le Chariot GEMINI
contrasting
Min XV Le Diable SAGITTARIUS

Any thoughts for Taurus and Aquarius? I shouldn't be having all the fun. Plus, many specific details relate exactly between the Egyptian association and the Tarot that have no Christian correlation. And too, Egyptian symbolism was largely adopted from 'outside' sources, over thousands of years; from whence it continues to spread even today.

Hi Kariroad,

do you speak of this deck?
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/ancient-egyptian/review.shtml

This deck is of 1994 ... so not very old. There are other types of Egyptian Tarot, which go back to 1896 or 97, made by an actor of the Comedié francaise, R. Falconnier.
Details in Wicked Pack of Cards, p. 255, but surely somebody has written in the web, if you type "Falconnier tarot", for instance here:
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Tarot_Decks:_Egyptian

I remember, that I've seen a French book from Falconnier with pictures of the cards at http://gallica.fr/
"Les XXII lames hermetiques du Tarot divinatoire"
Use the local search engine.

You seem to be interested in a combination of astrology (zodiac) and cards. There are two major orders, both from 19th century. One is called "French order" (Eliphas Levi, 1856) and that seems to be what you use, and the other is called "English order" and this is from c. 1887 from the Golden Dawn. Both go back to a version of the Sepher Yetzirah (which is from 1st-5th century AD), which combines Hebrew letters and astrological symbols.

Both schools tried to interpret this text according the row of the Tarot cards, but reached different results. The main difference is, that Eliphas Levi saw the Magician as the letter Alef, and the Golden Dawn combined it with the card Fool. By this difference all other (or nearly all ? 21 was in each case Tau ?) letters were combined ALSO to a different card, so there is a dramatic difference between the both systems.

In the time of the Sepher Yetzirah Tarot cards didn't exist, so the whole combination is a work of 19th century.
About the system of Sepher Yetzirah one can say, that it possibly is much older than the text.

Some time it was speculated, that the Tarot might have been arranged in 15th century according the Sepher Yetzirah ... and that this "arranged order" was detected either by Eliphas Levi or by Golden Dawn. This idea was frustrated, cause there had been in 15th century partly different Tarot orders than that, which was accepted as "correct" by Eliphas Levi and Golden Dawn, and cause a second argument, that Tarot cards were considered older than 1486, the year, in which the so called "first Christian kabbalist" Pico de Mirandola published a first Christian kabbala text.

Between Tarot historians, which have their focus in 15th century, usually neither the French nor the English order find much acceptance. It's attempted to explain the deck from the perspective of 15th century.

Sure, Maat would make a sort of Justice.

But anyway, life is easier, if one accepts, that mankind during its longer development formed more than one system. Heliopolis for instance had 9 gods ... that's only one of the Egyptian systems. I hope, you don't attempt to correlate the 9 gods with 22 Tarot atouts ... this shouldn't work well.

The crowned one said:

...
Copper engraving with hand painting? Sure, I guess that tells us it was created later then 1430 or so and likely earlier the 1820. That single fact I think anyone would accept. Then we can build off of that. Given the decks accepted date based an all the attributes assigned to it, copper makes sense.

Click to expand...

Sola Busca is for 1491 (which is the more or less accepted date) supreme art, I would say, so that it would be without date likely dated more later than earlier. Luckily there is more than one deck surviving, one full deck is colored, the others are only printed.

I find that there is a fair bit of shoe horning that goes on in all historical information, how many books on the same subject have you read that have completely different idea's or conclusions as to the why and where? ( with the exception of perhaps commerce as we do have lots of actual physical tangible objects ledgers, letters to read) Through commerce we really get into the heads of day to day life in history, if we can identify the materials, objects and their use.

Click to expand...

The playing card books are only a minor part of my reading ... the biographical part is much more, books, which even don't contain once the words "playing cards". It's rather important to understand the different societies as good as possible. Trionfi decks are a phenomenon of the upper class and according their position there is a lot of documented material for these persons. So the research strategy is to know 15th century as good as possible to evaluate. Books are judged according their informative value. Wíth the time develops experience, which authors construct something and which authors give fair information. Important information are anyway checked by various authors to be sure, that one isn't victim of senseless construction, conclusion here and there ... this is easy done with the web tools of nowadays. So I see not too much dependency on specific authors. Also there is the correction and possibly opposite opinion of other researchers, which is an important advantage against "working alone". That's why dialogs and general talking are of importance.

Often it seems to me we are deriving objects back to fit our personal idea's but I guess that is a characteristic of history. Studying copies of copies of copies, yet we can't keep a sentence straight at camp around the diner table, whispered in an ear.

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Well, we attempt usually to come as near to the sources as possible to avoid such surprises. And if information is given to others, there's often the remark, what's the base of the given statement (in cases it's necessary)

You Huck are obviously a great resource. If I have a question I will not hesitate to ask, if I have a opinion I will not hesitate to have you critique it. Thank-you for sharing your understanding of the subject.

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You're welcome.

Huck said:

Hi Kariroad,

do you speak of this deck?
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/ancient-egyptian/review.shtml

This deck is of 1994 ... so not very old. There are other types of Egyptian Tarot, which go back to 1896 or 97, made by an actor of the Comedié francaise, R. Falconnier.

Click to expand...

Hello Huck,
I was speaking of pre-Christian Tarot, not modern decks. An Italian card from the late 1300s or early 1400s showing a Hermit, in effect, being (and so for that time modern) actually representing the earlier, original Tarot. And per my further examples, if you will excuse please: etc etc etc

So you suspect that the earliest trionfi cards were cherry picked from egyptian deities, along with (greek) astrological 'meanings'. Was it the zodiac at Hathor’s temple of Dendra that inspired you?


Bee

KariRoad said:

Hello Huck,
I was speaking of pre-Christian Tarot, not modern decks. An Italian card from the late 1300s or early 1400s showing a Hermit, in effect, being (and so for that time modern) actually representing the earlier, original Tarot. And per my further examples, if you will excuse please: etc etc etc

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Well, likely the oldest known Italian playing cards are likely from Cary Yale Tarocchi (which I would give to 1441, but others occasionally think of 1427/28) or the Brera Brambilla Tarot.

Both don't contain a Hermit. A Hermit appears in the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo Tarot (somehow assumed to be made 1452).



It's relatively clear, who the commissioners of these decks were: The Visconti-Sforza family, whose members sponsored a lot of the costs for cloisters and churches around Milan. It's very difficult to call these productions "Pre-Christian".

Generally the Hermit card presents "Father Time", a figure, which became especially popular by a poem of Petrarca, "Trionfi", written between 1355 and 1374. Petrarca had been part of the cleric. It's very difficult to call his production "Pre-Christian". Petrarca's poem became popular in art and his six Trionfi figures Love - Chastity - Death - Fame - Time - Eternity became a popular topic:



Generally Father time was often connected or identified to "Chronos" (pre-christian figure for "Time") and also to "Kronos" (Greek Titan, pre-christian figure), which became the model for the Roman Saturn (pre-christian figure), who was also used as planet god.

Christians used Roman astrology, and this had formed mainly in 2nd century B.C.. All these figures are pre-Christian.

But I have the impression, that you speak of this story:


A French scholar called Court de Gebelin ...
http://autorbis.net/antoine-court-de-gebelin
... visited in 1776 a literary salon in Paris and there was a lady, who came from Switzerland/Germany and this had Tarot cards from the Marseille-typus. Within 15 minutes Gebelin had realized, that all the cards had Egyptian origin. In 1781 he established a longer article, in which he described the situation and his further researchers. This article was very much discussed, causing a lot of enthusiasm, but finally deadly critique.

Another factor is Pere Menestrier ...
http://autorbis.net/pere-menestrier
... who in 1704 wrote about a playing card deck, which in fragments was in a Parisian collection and Menestrier identified them as the playing cards, which were made by Gringonneur, a noted Parisian card maker, who had a commission from French king Charles VI in 1392. Indeed the deck contained Tarot cards and between them a Hermit.
This one:



Later playing card research detected a lot of mistakes in the representations of Menestrier and Gebelin. The identification of Menestrier was altered to a "deck likely from Ferrara, ca. 1470" (the Gringonneur document didn't mention Tarot cards).

In some discussions here in the Forum the opinion was developed, that the deck has a Florentine origin, mainly based upon specific iconographic details.

I myself developed the opinion, that it was made c. 1463 (Florence), likely for the 14th birthday of Lorenzo di Medici (the chariot cards has some earlier Medici heraldic). This theory is rather complex.

The Medici, the Florentine society and the Ferrarese establishment had all a Christian background.

Gebelin's exploration also found a lot of critique, and the idea, that Tarot developed in Egyptia was abandoned long ago by a vast majority of the playing card researchers.

In 1781 there had been some Egyptomania in France. As a consequence Napoleon in 1799 attacked Egyptia with military forces and at the same opportunity he brought a lot of scholars to Egypt, who made some early research work there. Still it's a fact in the old Egyptian studies, that, if you desire to study old Egypt, that you have to learn French language.

Gebelin's interests and ideas are understandable in the background of France in 1781.

There is a lot of evidence, that Trionfi cards (earlier name of cards with objects similar to Tarot cards) developed in Italy.
Hints on an earlier Egyptian origin are so spurious, that one better doesn't talk about this.

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Father Time got a modern follow-up with this very popular figure:



Compare the animals to the animals at Petrarca's father Time.

Hidden Tarot Codes Within Psalm 119

Following are ten of twenty two codes, found hidden within the Psalm 119, of the Bible.

Card Nº PSALM Nº
1 119:10
e.g. "...those who unlock the secret places..."

Gypsy Secret: 'Listen carefully to all my verses. I speak them without veil and without deception'.

Interestingly, the Hebrew letter associated with this card is ALEPH, and although I don't possess the Egyptian cards, viewed in my source, it, and the other twenty one cards, each have their associated Hebrew character, hidden within the design.

2 119:9
3 119:5
4 119:6
5 119:16
6 119:2
7 119:1
8 119:3
9 119:14
10 119:1

Next time some Christian yells profanities at you, simply cite the Psalms.

Happy research