Empress's looks

I think we all agree that the Emperor represents the father archetype, with this difference that he is not working from 9 to 5 to provide for the family, but can resort to the treasure left by his own parents. His power too is not attained by own merit, but inherited. Accordingly, his posture is relaxed, because he doesn't have to compete to stay in power, hereby procuring stability for the nation. The meaning in a reading is imo someone who has got authority assigned, but doesn't need powerplay to retain his superiority.

The Empress should represent the mother archetype, but contrary to what we would expect she doesn't show much of the motherly features of love, understanding and caretaking, that compensate the authority of the Emperor. Instead of her chest, her throat is protruding, and she has somewhat the face of a tomboy. I am using the ISIS version, and infer from the Queen of Wands, that the artist was able to draw attractive female faces.

Is there a reason for this? Should I take other meanings for the Empress, or just don't follow my personal impression of the image?

If it works and makes sense to you, I don't see why not.

Personally, I don't usually base my interpretations on personal impressions of the card images, unless they somehow become significant in a particular reading. The TdM Empress card in general is far from being depicted as motherly and loving, at least in our modern eyes. Here, she is shown as the head of state, much like the Emperor, which does not eliminate the motherly connotations anyway. A strict and authoritative mother is still a mother.

nuttyprofessor said:

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Is there a reason for this? Should I take other meanings for the Empress, or just don't follow my personal impression of the image?

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I would say follow your personal impressions.

To me it possibly downplays the idea that the images have sprouted directly from the universal subconscious of the artist. Maybe people are often looking for meanings of details in the cards, which actually are not there. And I don't like the other extreme of a disconnect between the picture and the meaning of the card. Ofcourse I hope that the cards are purely archetypal depictions, but could it be that the imperfections of the TdM are real imperfections?

What meanings did the early tarot readers assign?

This thread begs for a conclusion as far as me concerns.

It could be that it is a followup to the Popess, who according to medieval myth, was disguised as a male. It's also possible that a real female queen would not be able to maintain real power, and would not be realistic in the French culture of the 18th century. The same could be said about love without strength.

Some sources have mentioned that her throne is more like a pair of angelic wings. It could be that she in her compassion transcends the physical, so the body is of little importance. It reminds me of the big fat bellies of a lot of tibetan lamas, who find that form is just an obstruction on their path to nirvana. There is also the idea of the pairing of opposites.

There should be a major card that is a representative of the most important concept in life, and the Empress would be the most likely candidate.

It's also possible that a real female queen would not be able to maintain real power, and would not be realistic in the French culture of the 18th century.

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This possibility is substantiated by the following video about the history of playing cards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1twbHwwnm3I at 8:40

nuttyprofessor said:

It could be that it is a followup to the Popess, who according to medieval myth, was disguised as a male. It's also possible that a real female queen would not be able to maintain real power, and would not be realistic in the French culture of the 18th century. The same could be said about love without strength.

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FWIW, in France the Salic law prevailed, which provided that land and kingdoms could only be inherited by males, through male lines. There never was a queen regnant in France, unlike in England or Scotland.

It is worth keeping in mind the medieval notions of nobility and of royal power, and of the relations between the sexes as far as the first are concerned. The Salic Law and agnatic succession meant that women did not wield power in name, although it was often the case that they did effectively do so, less overtly.

This has led one French specialist of Machiavelli and of Renaissance political thought , Yves Lévy, to remark of the Tarot that “the Empress is nothing by herself”, in other words, that her station - and thus, power - is dependent on that of the Emperor, who, for his part, holds power by his very nature. Again, this takes us back to conceptions of nobility expressed in ways such as “nascitur, non fit”, and the position of women within feudal society.

According to this explicitly patriarchal view of things - in keeping with the time and place in which Tarot emerged, - the Emperor would represent absolute, innate, power, whereas the Empress would represent a relative and dependent power. And from the perspective of the Emperor, the Empress represents a kind of weakness.

Turning to visual cues which may possibly shed light on and consolidate this interpretation, we find the Empress clutching the imperial eagle and it is only to the extent that she maintains her hold on this eagle that she exerts any form of authority, be it by proxy or otherwise. The Emperor, for his part, has the heraldic eagle firmly at this feet.

Furthermore, being to the left of the Emperor, whose gaze is pointed in that direction, she remains under his supervision as he personifies the virtuous (in the sense of the Latin virtus) force of reason opposed to the inconstancy of the passions represented by the Empress.

There would be much more to add, but the essential part of this analysis, as far as the relations between the Emperor and Empress are concerned, is all here.

nuttyprofessor said:

The Empress should represent the mother archetype, but contrary to what we would expect she doesn't show much of the motherly features of love, understanding and caretaking, that compensate the authority of the Emperor. Instead of her chest, her throat is protruding, and she has somewhat the face of a tomboy. I am using the ISIS version, and infer from the Queen of Wands, that the artist was able to draw attractive female faces.

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The Empress is to me a figure of worldly female authority. It is well that she should be matronly, rather than nubile. Several years ago I posted a thread where I said that I could imagine the laughter of Colman-Smith's Empress, and Noblet's Empress. They are not the same laugh at all.

That said, I do think the "motherly features of love, understanding and caretaking" might be present in the Marseille version. But not without a stiff dose of no-nonsense advice about how the world works. Her plans will involve your material confort and well-being even if that isn't what you really wanted.

R wrote

Turning to visual cues which may possibly shed light on and consolidate this interpretation, we find the Empress clutching the imperial eagle and it is only to the extent that she maintains her hold on this eagle that she exerts any form of authority, be it by proxy or otherwise. The Emperor, for his part, has the heraldic eagle firmly at this feet.

Furthermore, being to the left of the Emperor, whose gaze is pointed in that direction, she remains under his supervision as he personifies the virtuous (in the sense of the Latin virtus) force of reason opposed to the inconstancy of the passions represented by the Empress.

Click to expand...

Well said. The Empress is not an idealized mother. Her function is to produce little emperors and be beautiful beside the Emperor. She does not have to be maternal; the Emperor can hire people for that, and it is safer for him. Her job is to produce an heir and follow orders. At most, she's a Venus to his Mars (that's the archetype, if any, although she looks less than that). When she holds her Eagle on her lap, it is like a Madonna holding her Christ-child, or Isis her Horus. But she doesn't look like a Madonna. Nor is she, at least yet, a self-possessed scheming regent, like Catherine de' Medici. Every historical TdM Empress I've seen looks self-absorbed and probably clueless. That is how a Marie Antoinette-type was perceived--and was, to a large extent. Perhaps the Marseillaise was a product of the TdM.