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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillie
I think reversals are hooey.
That's 'cause you're a hardcore Thoth-Lass, Lil
Top   #11
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Aw...

You know how to flatter a girl
Top   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm
I honestly would never have expected the level of anti-qabalah and anti-astrology sentiment here in the Thoth forum that I have seen over the past couple weeks. I'd expect that in most of the other forums, for sure, but here? I'm shocked, frankly.
I think you are taking it the wrong way. I think most of the people here realise the value of these things as they stand but when one gets intensily into the subject, thats where the hooey emerges. It takes a while to realise this with intense study and research, eg At first the Tarot becomes amazingly enlivened when one sees how Qabbalah slots in with it. So then one starts studying the Qabbalah a bit more intently and researching it and then one finds out that Western/Hermetic/Tarot Qabbalah is VERY different from traditional Jewish Kabalah. One can, firstly, get confused with Kabalah, then think Tarot Kabalah is Hooey and then realise that tarot Qabbalah has some value. A traditionalist will say that the Kabalah in the Tarot is rubbish.

When one understands what has actually happened to astrology and how that is mapped on to the tarot ... although a useful tool, in itself, is hooey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm
And, I'm positive that Crowley constructed the Thoth Tarot around the Qabalistic Tree of Life and Astrological considerations, and alchemy and many other things. That's how he designed the thing for crying out loud!
Actually, I don't believe he 'designed' it all, he copied the GD deck and then later added eclectic systems followed by the changes for Thelemic revelations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm

The SYMBOLS THEMSELVES make an appearance on the cards for crying out loud!!! I'm just now studying the 6 of wands and there are two astrological symbols right on the card: one for Jupiter, and one for Leo.
Well, why does drawing an astrological symbol on anything all of a sudden give it validity. I don't think anyone is saying that it is rubbish to suggest that Thoth uses astrology ... it's peoples understanding of the system used and its application that is in question .... and as these understandings continue to devolve in Tarot AND astrology these magical arts will devolve further down the path of public fortune telling. It wont be long before Hermetic Qabbalah as well will be further dumbed down and turned into some type of dodgey 'spellwork'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm
I think most if not all professional astrologers would disagree with this statement, and would explain exactly what Astrology measures. Something along the line of "Astrology is the science that explores the action of the celestial bodies upon animate and inanimate objects, and their reactions to such influences."
Well done, you did it! That's an answer that actually makes some sense! And a good choice of words. - My issue is that nearly every technical, encyclopedic, referential and common understanding of the term Astrology is at odds with what Astrologers say. Many insist that to utalise the stars and constellations is absolute rubbish,(and that has been stated very clearly on the astrology forum here) your term 'celestial bodies' seem to cover it (although some astrologers purport to not even use this)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm
According to what I've read, Crowley actually introduced America to Astrology, ghostwriting for Evangeline Adams.
Has anyone actually reasd this book and got anything out of it? - Try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm
Astrology is hooey. I suppose that this is meant objectively, and is basically saying that the time and place of your birth have no statistical or scientific relation to your personality and inner world.
No. I say Astrology (and I mean the most common form of astrology in our white western culture, ie. western tropical astrology) is Hooey because it has lost the plot on what it originally was! And now its trying to justify itself in ridiculous ways. The original astrology that Thoth was based on (ie. GD astrology was something totally different and magical and saw things like astrological beings that resided in constellations that influenced affairs on earth at specific times due to the relationship in position bewteen them and us) is something very different than that practised today and mostly here on this forum where the above idea of magical astrology was hotly disputed and dissed. I am not saying that it is Hooey that Thoth uses Astrology ... I can see the astro signs on my cards ... they are the large ones ... I've had them 30 years, I am saying astrology has become hooey!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm
This is why comparative religion as an academic discipline is such a quagmire, I suspect.
Actually it is an elightening education and helps one (or some) to break out of their culturally indoctrinated limits. When I studied Comparative Religion at Sydney University it was however, VERY challenging for those who had a rigid mind set and where secure and adament in their religous beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm
Anyway, I'm going to cut myself off before I foam at the mouth.
Hmmmmm, you have been a little 'testy' lately? What's going on there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm
As Kenny has pointed out, becoming a truly proficient astrologer takes A LOT of work and study and thought and meditation. To just dismiss the whole lot of them with a simplistic observation about how no two of them are in complete agreement seems to me to be rather unfair and besides the point.
Hopefully now you can understand there was a lot more to the comments than just sheer ignorant denial?
Top   #13
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ravenest,

Good post!

Yes. I see where you were coming from much better now. Thanks. I'll think on things, although I'm still largely unclear on your position.

Oh, and as for the Astrology definition, it's straight from Marion March's book "The Only Way to Learn Astrology".

And for the record, I wasn't at all feeling miffed or testy, just was cutting myself off 'cause I was blabbing on too much and my position/point was obvious, I think. Nothing going on. Just me. I'll definitely continue to change my tone and approach as I learn more about things and about the forum and the people here. I don't intend (or like) to be offensive and/or obnoxious. Sorry if I came across that way.

Moving on, so let me try to understand this, you're saying that everyone here is more or less in agreement that learning about Astrology and Qabalah is a good idea in ones study of the Thoth Tarot, but that after extensive study and reflection, one comes to understand that they are very separate things and that after a certain point, they cease to be helpful in ones understanding of the cards. Is that something close to what your position is?

Crowley DIDN'T design the Thoth Tarot? I'm confused! So I suppose you would say that Waite and Smith didn't design the RWS Tarot either? That both were designed by the Golden Dawn?

If so, I meant something different by "design" than you did.

I just meant that Crowley's directions to Lady Harris were informed by both Qabalah and Astrology. That his directions to her for, say, the six of wands, were informed by an understanding of Tippareth and Jupiter in Leo. So the picture and those Qabalistic and Astrological concepts have some relation. By design. By intent. ANd thus, understanding those Qabalistic and Astrological concepts helps one understand the six of wands.

Do you disagree with THAT?
Top   #14
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ravenest,

I've been reading lots more of your posts, and maybe I am coming to a clearer understanding of your position on this stuff.

So, you think modern Astrology has devolved into something you consider to be hooey, and that modern Astrologers by and large dismiss what you consider to be a more authentic and valid astrology. One which might be described as "magical".

Is this right?

OK. So, I was struck by this part of your reply:

Quote:
Well, why does drawing an astrological symbol on anything all of a sudden give it validity. I don't think anyone is saying that it is rubbish to suggest that Thoth uses astrology ... it's peoples understanding of the system used and its application that is in question .... and as these understandings continue to devolve in Tarot AND astrology these magical arts will devolve further down the path of public fortune telling. It wont be long before Hermetic Qabbalah as well will be further dumbed down and turned into some type of dodgey 'spellwork'.
So . . . drawing the symbols for Jupiter and Leo on a card doesn't make it "valid"?

Curious. I wouldn't have brought the term "valid" in at this point. I was thinking just in terms of meaning. That the card has an Astrological meaning, an astrological SIGNIFICANCE. And that knowing Astrology will bring out this significance.

But now, I see you saying that it's a hooey significance, because it is based on a hooey Astrology.

Is this right?

Are you saying that if people studied the authentic Astrology that the astrological meanings on the cards would be valid but since they don't, those meanings AREN'T VALID?

And was Crowley's Astrology valid? I assume that you think it wasn't, right? If so, HOW CURIOUS!

But, forgetting Crowley's own understanding of Astrology and his "system", aren't the Astrological associations of the Thoth cards the same as the Golden Dawn? And if so, does that make the GD any more or less "valid".

I don't know, ravenest. I don't know. I'm only just beginning my study of Astrology, and I'm studying what you would probably term a devolved version of it, but so far, I think it's pretty amazing, and I think I like what modern Astrologers have done.

However, I do agree that the use of Astrology merely for cute little horoscopes in newspapers and for fortunetelling is not the highest use one could make of it.

But, really, I wonder what this means for all the plethora of new Tarot decks out there now. Would you say that none of them is "valid" because it is not based upon the pure sources of esoteric teaching?

Or what would you say?
Top   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheekyinchworm

Moving on, so let me try to understand this, you're saying that everyone here is more or less in agreement that learning about Astrology and Qabalah is a good idea in ones study of the Thoth Tarot,
.......

I'm not going to.

I looked at it once and it didn't like me.

I just lay down the cards and say what I see.

Other than that it's all hooey to me
Top   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillie
I just lay down the cards and say what I see.
Buzzing, beaping thing. 'You're right, that's Catchphase!'
Top   #17
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......... I used to watch that.

Years ago.

It took me forever to figure out what your post meant.

But yeah, say what you see
Top   #18
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Sorry cheekyinchworm, I just spent half an hour posting a reply to your last (or so I thought) now I go back on line and my post is ...... ?

I dont know! In some other forum, did I press the wrong button, was I where I thought I was (I always get hassled when the librarian is waiting for me to finish so she can go to lunch ...."We are having lunch soon" she says, so I just took that as an invite 'Oh good, I'm hungry - what are we having ?"..... ah I'll do it again .... but not now - I've had enough of town and want to go home.
Top   #19
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an aside


I didn't do anything, honest.

Sometimes the Forum database acts up. It is always a good idea to check and make sure your post got posted before leaving the screen so you can go back a re-post. If it posts twice, that is easier to handle.

M
Top   #20


 


 


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