Where did Waite get these meanings?

Amber Lamps said:

Waite tipped his King/Knight, Knight/King hand when he wrote:

"A Knight should be chosen as the Significator if the subject of inquiry is a man of forty years old and upward; a King should be chosen for any male who is under that age..."

He did, though, keep the Astrology under his turban

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Haha, well maybe that was a good thing

ravenest said:

Its not my 'theory' , it has has been well out there for ... ever (I live in a land with, at least, a 40,000 year old indigenous culture ... they used stars). I read up on ancient civilisations ... they used stars - as did many traditions in all places over all times .I studied anthropology, every culture I studied gave significantce to the stars and their effect on us ... except one : western tropical astrology ... it doesnt use stars at all ... (well, wandering stars, which are planets, and one star - the Sun).

For a while, western tropical astrologers were poo -pooing the use of stars and saying it wasnt astrology at all , they seem to accept it more now .

And the concept most have when using astrology with the cards is a western tropical astrological one ... even with Waite and Thoth decks ... which are clearly based on GD astrology - which has its own system < double shrug> .

anyway better PM me if you want to get into this more.

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I also studied into ancient civilzations, unfortunely I been around western astrology, I didnt get the privilage like you, except through books, and TV. but you cant alway believe what the media, brain washing, mis informed TV tells you. lol hmm almost sounds like GD mis information, dumb down the people.

I will send you pm

Thanks

ravenest said:

In any case , how do we know the Picatrix (or Ibn Ezra or Agrippa) got the decans 'right' (in some cases they are at odds with each other).

Yep, you just have to decide what Picatrix meaning 'Trumps' previous meanings that you are attached to .

Sure, why not. Picatrix tarot. ( You could publish it and have all these Freemasonic / Kabbalistic tarot readers scratching their heads and going "Where did she get THAT from?" )

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Here I have Quoted from the Picatrix translated book. To answer your question, Agrippa, etc. Were all influenced by the Picatrix. So I would be more incline that the Picatrix is the correct and original text, used for the Astrological influences of the Minor Arcana meanings.

"T he influence of Picatrix on the magical traditions of the western world was immense. Most of the significant scholarly occultists of the late Middle Ages appear to have drawn on it, or on material borrowed from it by other authors. Marsilio Ficino, whose translation of the Corpus Hermeticum launched the Renaissance occult revival, borrowed heavily from it for his pathbreaking Three Books on Life; Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa’s Three Books of Occult Philosophy was even more extensively influenced by Picatrix, and some of the leading figures in the English occult renaissance of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries—Simon Forman, Elias Ashmole and William Lilly—used it as a primary source for their own magical work. With the end of the Renaissance and the rise of the scientific materialism that dominated seventeenth-century culture, however, Picatrix dropped from sight, and the revival of magic in the western world that began in the middle of the 19th century passed it by. Even today it remains the least known of the major works of western occultism."

I have taken the liberty to attach pictures, showing the Picatrix meanings From the book "Mystical Origins of the Tarot", I also added to the photos, images from the deck Giovanni Caselli did up for John Mathews The Grail Tarot. This is the only tarot deck that I can find, besides a Marseille deck, that actually depicts the correct images for the correct meaning of the cards. It is nice to have a Deck that depicts the correct images and meanings.

I have compiled and fixed the errors that were mention in the book, organized it for you to make it easier for understanding. This is just to get you warmed up.

As you will see Waite didn't follow the Picatrix, he didn't even follow GD. Now, there's something to think about......

So check it out It's an "Eye Opener".

I have attached these cards.

3 of Swords
4 of Swords (When you look at this card you will see a woman with a sword, in background)
7 of Cups
7 of Wands
7 of Swords

Well I've I thought heavy, I going to do Yep, I am, I used to be a good artist, yes I had a stroke, yes I lost fine motor skills in my drawing hand, but I going to do it. My drawings may not be fabulouse like other artists have done tarot decks, but maybe it may help my fine motor skills to draw again. So yep, I am doing it.

The Picatrix Tarot, yep I think thats a great idea for me, to do, please let me do this, should it turn out lame, the you may take my idea, but for now let me give it ago.

Thanks

La Force

If you plan a deck based on decan imagery I highly recommend Scion's (aka: playwrighter Shawn Nacol) guide to the tarot deck Liber T - and also of course the deck Liber T Tarot of the Stars Eternal itself, the imagery of which makes use of decan imagery from several sources (the Picatrix, Agrippa, Bruno, Ibn ezra and Liber Hermetis). Scion's guide is online here:

Link removed until I can clarify the position with Scion (re: his writing a book).

kwaw said:

If you plan a deck based on decan imagery I highly recommend Scion's (aka: playwrighter Shawn Nacol) guide to the tarot deck Liber T - and also of course the deck Liber T Tarot of the Stars Eternal itself, the imagery of which makes use of decan imagery from several sources (the Picatrix, Agrippa, Bruno, Ibn ezra and Liber Hermetis). Scion's guide is online here:

http://files.meetup.com/151205/Scion's.pdf

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Thank you, I am going to need this definitely, hmmm. I guess I will need to get the deck to. Dang wish I had some money right now

This thread seems to have meandered beyond the realms of consciousness. I'm sorry to bring in something here about Waite but thought it might be of interest:

In Part One, The Veil and its Symbols Waite says:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pkt0101.htm

The true Tarot is symbolism; it speaks no other language and offers no other signs. Given the inward meaning of its emblems, they do become a kind of alphabet which is capable of indefinite combinations and makes true sense in all. On the highest plane it offers a key to the Mysteries, in a manner which is not arbitrary and has not been read in, But the wrong symbolical stories have been told concerning it, and the wrong history has been given in every published work which so far has dealt with the subject.

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I think Waite is referring here to its Egyptian 'origins'. He is also imo referring to the Majors where he talks of an Alphabet and key to the Mysteries.

He goes on to say:

It has been intimated by two or three writers that, at least in respect of the meanings, this is unavoidably the case, because few are acquainted with them, while these few hold by transmission under pledges and cannot betray their trust.

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So those who understand the Mysteries are under pledge not to betray this pledge.

Further:

The fact remains, notwithstanding, that a Secret Tradition exists regarding the Tarot, and as there is always the possibility that some minor arcana of the Mysteries may be made public with a flourish of trumpets...

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And then,

it will be as well to go before the event and to warn those who are curious in such matters that any revelation will contain only a third part of the earth and sea and a third part of the stars of heaven in respect of the symbolism. This is for the simple reason that neither in root-matter nor in development has more been put into writing, so that much will remain to be said after any pretended unveiling. The guardians of certain temples of initiation who keep watch over mysteries of this order have therefore no cause for alarm.

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So he is saying that he will only reveal a third of the 'truth' and talks about 'root matters' which I believe refers to sacred geometry. He also lets the guardians of these mysteries ie members of the GD and his other groups that he will not reveal anything from the inner order or mysteries. Much will remain to be said, so a lot has not been put into the decks.

He goes on to say,

...as I have intimated--to introduce a rectified set of the cards themselves and to tell the unadorned truth concerning them, so far as this is possible in the outer circles. As regards the sequence of greater symbols, their ultimate and highest meaning lies deeper than the common language of picture or hieroglyph. This will be understood by those who have received some part of the Secret Tradition.

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So he will allow some knowledge know to the 'outer circles' perhaps meaning already know through publicised occult texts and those who are uninitiated. He also says that the text accompanying the deck are perhaps not as important as the actual symbols on the deck itself.

He then says,

It is regrettable in several respects that I must confess to certain reservations, but there is a question of honour at issue.

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He then talks about people who know little of the occult sciences, charlatans and others who don't know what they are talking about, who are spreading their nonsense and this needs to be reduced to a bare minimum given the reservations on what he can say.

So it seems as though Waite is saying that the RWS is a deck of Symbols, that nothing of the inner sanctum will be revealed, that the text is perhaps not as important as the actual cards and that he has 'reservations' on what he can reveal due to oaths. He also tries to put the record straight regarding the origin of tarot and other 'myths' widely believed at the time.

kwaw said:

If you plan a deck based on decan imagery I highly recommend Scion's (aka: playwrighter Shawn Nacol) guide to the tarot deck Liber T - and also of course the deck Liber T Tarot of the Stars Eternal itself, the imagery of which makes use of decan imagery from several sources (the Picatrix, Agrippa, Bruno, Ibn ezra and Liber Hermetis). Scion's guide is online here:

http://files.meetup.com/151205/Scion's.pdf

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Is this a new one with additions changes / format or is it a copy of the old one that used to be up?

Anyway .... <snaffle .... store >

La Force said:

........As you will see Waite didn't follow the Picatrix, he didn't even follow GD. Now, there's something to think about......

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Neither the Golden Dawn nor Waite follows the Picatrix exactly. Does the Grail Tarot follow the Picatrix? I never thought to check that out.

However, I don't see where Waite deviates from the Golden Dawn decans in the Pips. I thought I went over all 36 of them very carefully. Did I miss something?