venicebard
mjhurst said:
Tarot development- Mhchelino, Mantegna, Sola Busca, Minchiate?
Rosanne
Clash of the Titans!
Ross Wins!
The least 'Tunneled Visioned' Titan Gold Award in Tarot Development.
The most 'Improved' Titan goes to VeniceBard - because I can understand his arguments this time (not because I agree
)
The 'Best base ' Gold Award for Wide Ranging and Interesting information goes to Huck.
MjHurst gets a gold for being consistent but a live Muscovy Duck for these comments
and
I agree there is a shadowy 'Ur' deck of 22 that originated in Italy and it had a non-Christian theme, about Fortune, Luck and Hope and Wealth through Peace. It most likely followed the Proverb He has not lost all who has one play left... or Si Fortuna me Tormenta, il speranza me contento
~Rosanne
Ross Wins!
The least 'Tunneled Visioned' Titan Gold Award in Tarot Development.
The most 'Improved' Titan goes to VeniceBard - because I can understand his arguments this time (not because I agree
)The 'Best base ' Gold Award for Wide Ranging and Interesting information goes to Huck.
MjHurst gets a gold for being consistent but a live Muscovy Duck for these comments
Actually I think Saint Augustine beats you by a whisker(not that he would have called it Tarot) as does Anonymous of Tarot Meditations (unless of course you are Anonymous)
and
which is why you get a Gold for consistency.
I agree there is a shadowy 'Ur' deck of 22 that originated in Italy and it had a non-Christian theme, about Fortune, Luck and Hope and Wealth through Peace. It most likely followed the Proverb He has not lost all who has one play left... or Si Fortuna me Tormenta, il speranza me contento
~Rosanne
mjhurst
Hi, Rosanne,
As is often the case, I don't quite understand what you are attempting to say, unless you are simply being snide and abusive.
The discussion was about the Sola Busca trumps. While offering some ideas about their possible design, I took pains to point out my deficiencies as an interpreter of that deck. I noted that 1) my identifications of the individual subjects were little more than guesswork and Google searches, while 2) my analysis of an overall design --despite being the only one I know of which attempts to explain what Nero, Nimrod, and Nebuchadnezzar are doing in the same company as figures from the Late Republic -- was just a vague hunch, intended as a brainstorming contribution toward some more knowledgeable person's future analysis. This was intended to emphasize the fact that no one has yet presented a plausible and detailed analysis of the meaning of the Sola Busca trumps.
You took one snippet out of context, scurrilously turned a self-deprecating sentence into a self-lauding statement, and then made these odd remarks:
Given that you esteem your own views so highly as to pass judgment on those of us who are actually attempting to investigate the Sola Busca trumps, perhaps you could enlighten us with a less cryptic reference to these writers? Perhaps some quotations re the Sola Busca trumps, or at least an actual citation or two?
Or, given that you apparently understand more about Sola Busca than those you pass judgment on, why not just post your own explanation of the design? I'm sure that I'm not the only one who would appreciate finding a better explanation than the vague hunches that have been presented so far.
Best regards,
Michael
As is often the case, I don't quite understand what you are attempting to say, unless you are simply being snide and abusive.
The discussion was about the Sola Busca trumps. While offering some ideas about their possible design, I took pains to point out my deficiencies as an interpreter of that deck. I noted that 1) my identifications of the individual subjects were little more than guesswork and Google searches, while 2) my analysis of an overall design --despite being the only one I know of which attempts to explain what Nero, Nimrod, and Nebuchadnezzar are doing in the same company as figures from the Late Republic -- was just a vague hunch, intended as a brainstorming contribution toward some more knowledgeable person's future analysis. This was intended to emphasize the fact that no one has yet presented a plausible and detailed analysis of the meaning of the Sola Busca trumps.
You took one snippet out of context, scurrilously turned a self-deprecating sentence into a self-lauding statement, and then made these odd remarks:
It's been a long time since I read Valentin Tomberg's Meditations on the Tarot, but I confess to not knowing where either St. Augustine nor Tomberg talked about Babylonian and Roman rulers in the context of the Late Republic.Rosanne said:
Given that you esteem your own views so highly as to pass judgment on those of us who are actually attempting to investigate the Sola Busca trumps, perhaps you could enlighten us with a less cryptic reference to these writers? Perhaps some quotations re the Sola Busca trumps, or at least an actual citation or two?
Or, given that you apparently understand more about Sola Busca than those you pass judgment on, why not just post your own explanation of the design? I'm sure that I'm not the only one who would appreciate finding a better explanation than the vague hunches that have been presented so far.
Best regards,
Michael
Bernice
Michael, Michael, Michael..... (shaking head at you)
Rosanne was according you due acknowledgment and recognition for your unflagging consistancy in exploring the tarot cards. Managing to remain objective, yet giving due consideration to all and any factors that would enhance a greater understanding of the deck.
Tut - tut, no need to be so touchy! A small (cherry ) tomatoe now-&-again is only a bit of light amusement. You are loved.
Bee
Rosanne was according you due acknowledgment and recognition for your unflagging consistancy in exploring the tarot cards. Managing to remain objective, yet giving due consideration to all and any factors that would enhance a greater understanding of the deck.
Tut - tut, no need to be so touchy! A small (cherry ) tomatoe now-&-again is only a bit of light amusement. You are loved.
Bee
mjhurst
Hi, Bernice,
I certainly have no objection to snark in general, but IMO a sardonic riposte is only worth posting when it is directed at the substance of a thread. In this case, Rosanne appears to be indulging in gratuitous abuse with nothing to contribute to the discussion, i.e., the kibitzing of a troll. (One might expect better of a poster with nearly 4,000 posts.)
However, as always, I may be mistaken. If so, I would love to know what Augustine or Tomberg had to say relevant to the Sola Busca trump cycle. That's why I asked specific questions about the alleged material content of her post.
Commenting on her arrogance in passing judgment and her slurs against me, Bernice, was simply a cherry (tomato) on top -- no need to be so touchy!
Best regards,
Michael
Indeed... sarcasm denigrating others is usually seen as amusing, (as long as you are not the "other"). But in this case it doesn't seem to add to the discussion of Sola Busca trumps... unless, perhaps, her allusions to Augustine and Tomberg were in some way substantive. Asking about those comments was the point of my reply.Bernice said:
I certainly have no objection to snark in general, but IMO a sardonic riposte is only worth posting when it is directed at the substance of a thread. In this case, Rosanne appears to be indulging in gratuitous abuse with nothing to contribute to the discussion, i.e., the kibitzing of a troll. (One might expect better of a poster with nearly 4,000 posts.)
However, as always, I may be mistaken. If so, I would love to know what Augustine or Tomberg had to say relevant to the Sola Busca trump cycle. That's why I asked specific questions about the alleged material content of her post.
Commenting on her arrogance in passing judgment and her slurs against me, Bernice, was simply a cherry (tomato) on top -- no need to be so touchy!
Best regards,
Michael
Rosanne
Thanks Bernice but I was being snide.
I get a little tired of the comments that Michael gives and the impression that everyone but him is stupid.
On the other hand much of what Michael says is interesting, but the tone of arrogance gets too much to bear at times.
So I got politely snide-and I signed my name, but do not put the best regards- when the tone is not best regards.
To keep on Topic, it is my view that all cards have some bearing on the History of Tarot whether directly or not. Like all games there is a cross over of ideas, and information can be gleaned. Much can be gained from considering the Michiate when looking toward attitudes of the Time. I certainly do not think the Sola Busca is Anti Pagan by the way.
~Rosanne
I get a little tired of the comments that Michael gives and the impression that everyone but him is stupid.
On the other hand much of what Michael says is interesting, but the tone of arrogance gets too much to bear at times.
So I got politely snide-and I signed my name, but do not put the best regards- when the tone is not best regards.
To keep on Topic, it is my view that all cards have some bearing on the History of Tarot whether directly or not. Like all games there is a cross over of ideas, and information can be gleaned. Much can be gained from considering the Michiate when looking toward attitudes of the Time. I certainly do not think the Sola Busca is Anti Pagan by the way.
~Rosanne
Rosanne
In considering how one deck may give you information about another deck in concepts, whether it be Tarot or not- is 2 cards from the Sola Busca as an example.
Card V1 Sesto
Sesto was the name of the Roman military camp near Venice. It guarded the area/town of Julia Concordia or Concordia as it is still known.
The town was founded in 42 BC as Iulia Concordia by the Romans, where the Via Annia and the Via Postumia crossed each other. Concordia was the Goddess of Peace and Harmony. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire it was part of the Lombard duchy of Cividale, and later was first in the March of Friuli and then in the Patriarchate of Aquileia. In 1420, together with all Friuli, it was annexed by the Republic of Venice.
Sesto was a famous military camp, as was the area of the Town 'Concordia' who supplied the nearby port.
Seems a great Warrior camp to explain card V1.
Card V1111 seems to indicate Hadrian even though it is called Falco. It is all to do with the word Falco. The Latin word falco comes from an older Latin word falx, falcis which means "sickle." It is often assumed that this word came to be applied to the birds because of the shape of their wings in flight, but others believe that it was because of the shape of their talons or beaks. In the context of a Warrior who was a famous Hunter, a Falconeur and in the Wars of Dacia a new weapon was used- a famous sickle shaped sword The drastically curved Dacian Falx or Falco., which would be used by the only the strongest or bravest warriors. Hadrian was considered a Humanist and as to the beard - so pronounced in this card... the beard, symbolised his philhellenism. Except for Nero (also a great lover of Greek culture), all Roman emperors before Hadrian were clean shaven. Most of the emperors after Hadrian would be portrayed with beards. Their beards, however, were not worn out of an appreciation for Greek culture but because the beard had, thanks to Hadrian, become fashionable. (from Myths and Legends Vivian Ridler) As to why at V1111 - He was considered the greatest wandering Warrior, and traveled far and wide in his time.He was also a Stoic - and the four Virtues of Stoicism were wisdom/courage/justice/Temperance and clear sight. Hadrian apparently wrote this just before he died.
Little soul, roamer and charmer
Body's guest and companion
Who soon will depart to places
Darkish, chilly and misty
An end to all your jokes.
I know it is considered that the cards depict writers- but it seems a long stretch to me.
So earlier Tarot influenced this deck as The Sola Busca influenced the RWS apparently; and as a themed deck was likely influenced by the German decks.
So I see a line of connections between many decks of the 15th Century as grist to the mill of Tarot.
~Rosanne
Card V1 Sesto
Sesto was the name of the Roman military camp near Venice. It guarded the area/town of Julia Concordia or Concordia as it is still known.
The town was founded in 42 BC as Iulia Concordia by the Romans, where the Via Annia and the Via Postumia crossed each other. Concordia was the Goddess of Peace and Harmony. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire it was part of the Lombard duchy of Cividale, and later was first in the March of Friuli and then in the Patriarchate of Aquileia. In 1420, together with all Friuli, it was annexed by the Republic of Venice.
Sesto was a famous military camp, as was the area of the Town 'Concordia' who supplied the nearby port.
Seems a great Warrior camp to explain card V1.
Card V1111 seems to indicate Hadrian even though it is called Falco. It is all to do with the word Falco. The Latin word falco comes from an older Latin word falx, falcis which means "sickle." It is often assumed that this word came to be applied to the birds because of the shape of their wings in flight, but others believe that it was because of the shape of their talons or beaks. In the context of a Warrior who was a famous Hunter, a Falconeur and in the Wars of Dacia a new weapon was used- a famous sickle shaped sword The drastically curved Dacian Falx or Falco., which would be used by the only the strongest or bravest warriors. Hadrian was considered a Humanist and as to the beard - so pronounced in this card... the beard, symbolised his philhellenism. Except for Nero (also a great lover of Greek culture), all Roman emperors before Hadrian were clean shaven. Most of the emperors after Hadrian would be portrayed with beards. Their beards, however, were not worn out of an appreciation for Greek culture but because the beard had, thanks to Hadrian, become fashionable. (from Myths and Legends Vivian Ridler) As to why at V1111 - He was considered the greatest wandering Warrior, and traveled far and wide in his time.He was also a Stoic - and the four Virtues of Stoicism were wisdom/courage/justice/Temperance and clear sight. Hadrian apparently wrote this just before he died.
Little soul, roamer and charmer
Body's guest and companion
Who soon will depart to places
Darkish, chilly and misty
An end to all your jokes.
I know it is considered that the cards depict writers- but it seems a long stretch to me.
So earlier Tarot influenced this deck as The Sola Busca influenced the RWS apparently; and as a themed deck was likely influenced by the German decks.
So I see a line of connections between many decks of the 15th Century as grist to the mill of Tarot.
~Rosanne
mjhurst
Hi, Rosanne,
I hope that addressing you by name and saying "hi" (it's a conventional "salutation" with which I begin each post) isn't offensive to you. And I apologize for offending you so much with the simple "complimentary close" with which I conclude each post. That too is conventional, and not intended to give offense. However, it seems that you are offended by anything I write. In that regard you remind me of the McCain presidential campaign, which had one attack ad ready to run if his opponent did not visit the troops while abroad and another attack ad ready if he did.
There's just no pleasing some people.
Who has done such a study? Can you name some writers and cite the places where they have presented a detailed analysis of 1) the meaning of the standard trumps and their ordering along with 2) an analysis of the revisions instituted in Florence and 3) how those changes express characteristic Florentine sensibilities?
Can you name even one person who has done that?
You pose as one who knows, so tell us: What is the meaning of the S-B trump cycle?
You make these claims with no support, and present yourself as sufficiently knowledgeable to justify passing judgment on others. Why not share your wisdom instead of simply implying your superior insight? Is the meaning of Sola Busca a secret that you can only impart to initiates of an obscure Masonic sect?
For example, the lists and analyses in that earlier post of mine, the one you seem to find so misguided, summarized a much larger number of comparisons. Every card in the Sola Busca trumps was compared with the correspondingly numbered card in the standard trumps, (including several different orderings), and then each card in the Sola Busca trumps was compared individually with every trump in the standard series.
That's all 22 Sola Busca trumps, involving hundreds of comparisons with cards from other decks, and where a connection was apparent they were listed. And yet you believe that this is something that you need to lecture about to the rest of us? While simultaneously complaining about other people's arrogance?
Hmmm... okay, whatever. Let's look at Sesto and Falco and how you compare Sola Busca to other decks.
6 - SESTO: A MAN WITH TORCH AND WINGED FEET
You seem confused as to why anyone, on a forum titled Historical Research, would quibble with such empty presentations. You've come to the conclusion that it must be because I'm a bad person, but consider an alternative possibility. There might be other reasons why such a presentation would generate a critical reply, why someone might compare your suggestion with other possibilities.
Let me illustrate. Here's one suggestion, generated somewhat like yours -- just a Google search. However, it entailed a more far-reaching search phase in which most of the results were discarded, and only the best one was kept. That one might actually explain a few things about the card and even suggest something about the larger design. First, the repeated caveat lector. Like most of the other subjects, even with the names written on the cards the subject matter is ambiguous to those of us who don't know much about history or languages other than English. That is why I have repeatedly emphasized the dangers of naive guesswork, and pointedly included my own guesses as stuff to be wary of. Are we there? Let's go on.
The figure depicted is a man with winged feet/sandals holding a great torch. The card is named Sesto and numbered 6. I have proposed a thesis that the overall design relates to the Late Roman Republic as seen by Christian historians. Working with that artifact and within that framework, what might Sesto symbolize?
Sesto Pompeo is the Italian name for Sextus Pompey (in Latin, Sextus Pompeius Magnus Pius; c.67 BC - 35 AD). Sesto "was a Roman general from the late Republic (1st century BC). He was the last focus of opposition to the Second Triumvirate." "Together with Metellus Scipio, Cato the younger, his brother Gnaeus and other senators, they prepared to oppose Caesar and his army to the end." This ties him to not only the Late Republic in general but specifically with other names on the list of Sola Busca trumps.
The obverse of a coin honoring Sesto shows the great lighthouse at Messina, where he won his victory over Octavian in 37 BC. The Pharos at Messina might be symbolized by the Sola Busca figure's great torch. (The S-B cards are sometimes quite free -- and even sarcastic -- in their depiction of identifying attributes, as in the case where the famous horseman Marius is shown riding a dead tree.) Sesto was defeated shortly thereafter, so his success was fleeting -- a transitory, essentially Pyrrhic victory -- which might be reflected in his winged feet. Note also that his adversary Octavian later became Caesar Augustus, the first emperor of the Roman Empire. (Caesar and Sulla had been Dictator, an official post but not quite emperor.) His opposition to the first ruler of the new Roman Empire fits well with the overall design I've proposed, in which Babylonian and Roman emperors are contrasted with figures from the Late Republic. And the transience of Sesto's anti-imperial victory is an echo of the transience of the highest triumphs, Nimrod and Nebuchadnezzar.
The End Of The Roman Republic
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/The_End_Of_The_Roman_Republic
Sextus Pompey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextus_Pompeius
War with Pompeius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus#War_with_Pompeius
Note that Sextus Pompeius is suggested as the proper identification of Sesto on the Tarotpedia page discussing the Late Republic. This identification seems much better than the others that have been proposed, by me and others, and it seems much more fertile in terms of generating leads for investigating the other subjects. It appears not merely plausible but highly probable. Of course, without a detailed explanation of the raison d'être of the series as a whole, we can't be certain.
Before you resume your complaints about my attitude, Rosanne, take a deep breath and try real hard to think about what I wrote. I'm flatly rejecting my own guesses and adopting someone else's suggestion. I'm doing that for the same reason that I adopt lots of other ideas from other people -- they are better than my own ideas. That's why I cite them, repeatedly.
I'm wrong about something every day. However, I can also learn, and make progress over time. That requires rejecting 99% of everything that others have written about Tarot, and most of the ideas I come up with on my own. Just because you found something on a Google search doesn't make it worth posting. Find a couple dozen different things, think about them and compare them, and present the best. Re-search means to look again.
Perhaps the most telling observation regarding your comments on Sesto is that they are wholly beside the point. You announced that "In considering how one deck may give you information about another deck in concepts, whether it be Tarot or not- is 2 cards from the Sola Busca as an example." Ignoring the grammatical problems there, and the consequent uncertainty about your meaning, it appears that you intended to give two examples of how one deck can shed light on another. In your first example you failed completely to even address that question: There was no reference to any other deck.
You like grading other people's work -- try grading your own.
9 - FALCO: A KNEELING MAN WITH CROWN AND SCEPTER
1. Name. You use the name as a fortune-teller might, as pretext for free association. You thereby reject everyone named Falco from consideration, without even a word of explanation. Why reject the obvious without even looking? Are you trying to get it wrong?
2. Number. You offer an incoherent comment about Hadrian being a wandering warrior: "As to why at V1111 - He was considered the greatest wandering Warrior, and traveled far and wide in his time." Are you suggesting, obliquely, that Hadrian was one of the Nine Worthies? If so, you need to say that, and then back it up with an appropriate citation. In what source works was Hadrian included as one of the nine? If that's not what you are hinting at, why not just tell us what you mean?
3. Image. You claim that the figure is the emperor Hadrian, and the figure is a crowned man with a beard and a scepter. Okay... but why Hadrian, and why is he kneeling?
4. Context. As with the discussion of Sesto, you simply ignore the relation of the card with the rest of the trumps. What does Hadrian have to do with the rest of the series? What is the rest of the series even about?
Let's try someone named Falco for the card named Falco.
The most telling observation regarding your comments on Falco is that they are, like your comments on Sesto, wholly beside the point. You announced that "In considering how one deck may give you information about another deck in concepts, whether it be Tarot or not- is 2 cards from the Sola Busca as an example." Ignoring the grammatical problems there, and the consequent uncertainty about your meaning, it appears that you intended to give two examples of how one deck can shed light on another. And that is supported by your conclusion:
Your second conclusion, that S-B was influenced by German decks, is also a reasonable one and nothing new. But like your first conclusion, you completely failed to address this subject! Not one word comparing the design of Sola Busca (particularly the illustrated suit cards) to German decks.
Is this a joke?
Am I being punked by an absurdest non sequitur?
Are you simply pointing out that you don't always dispute the obvious? That's nice and all, but whether you agree with the obvious fact that the history of Tarot cards is a part of the larger history of playing cards, and that later decks are routinely based on earlier decks, it is clear that you can't make a single coherent argument supporting that position.
Incoherent babbling about Hadrian, who appears in the trumps of neither standard Tarot decks nor the Sola Busca Tarot deck, and random comments about virtues, etc., do not constitute making a statement, much less supporting it with evidence and argument. And simply offering weak guesses about the identification of two trumps taken wholly out of context tells us nothing about how those two trumps relate to some unspecified earlier decks. Is there a Sesto Camp or Concordia card in some other deck? Is there a Hadrian card, named Falco, in some 15th-century German deck?
As noted a couple days ago, it is difficult to discern what you are trying to say.
Best regards,
Michael
I hope that addressing you by name and saying "hi" (it's a conventional "salutation" with which I begin each post) isn't offensive to you. And I apologize for offending you so much with the simple "complimentary close" with which I conclude each post. That too is conventional, and not intended to give offense. However, it seems that you are offended by anything I write. In that regard you remind me of the McCain presidential campaign, which had one attack ad ready to run if his opponent did not visit the troops while abroad and another attack ad ready if he did.
There's just no pleasing some people.
Has anyone ever posted an opinion contrary to that, or are you merely affirming the obvious?Rosanne said:
Has anyone ever posted an opinion contrary to that, or are you merely affirming the obvious?Rosanne said:
Really? How much? How would you know? What is it that can be gained in such an analysis?Rosanne said:
Who has done such a study? Can you name some writers and cite the places where they have presented a detailed analysis of 1) the meaning of the standard trumps and their ordering along with 2) an analysis of the revisions instituted in Florence and 3) how those changes express characteristic Florentine sensibilities?
Can you name even one person who has done that?
Again, what do you know?Rosanne said:
You pose as one who knows, so tell us: What is the meaning of the S-B trump cycle?
You make these claims with no support, and present yourself as sufficiently knowledgeable to justify passing judgment on others. Why not share your wisdom instead of simply implying your superior insight? Is the meaning of Sola Busca a secret that you can only impart to initiates of an obscure Masonic sect?
Since no one has ever disputed that obvious notion, it hardly needs a demonstration. If you do want an example, you could simply cite any of the endless comparisons between different decks that have been discussed by many writers. You seem to think that you are suggesting something new or different -- is that really your belief?Rosanne said:
For example, the lists and analyses in that earlier post of mine, the one you seem to find so misguided, summarized a much larger number of comparisons. Every card in the Sola Busca trumps was compared with the correspondingly numbered card in the standard trumps, (including several different orderings), and then each card in the Sola Busca trumps was compared individually with every trump in the standard series.
That's all 22 Sola Busca trumps, involving hundreds of comparisons with cards from other decks, and where a connection was apparent they were listed. And yet you believe that this is something that you need to lecture about to the rest of us? While simultaneously complaining about other people's arrogance?
Hmmm... okay, whatever. Let's look at Sesto and Falco and how you compare Sola Busca to other decks.
6 - SESTO: A MAN WITH TORCH AND WINGED FEET
What specifically does that purport to explain? It doesn't appear to explain the image, because the image doesn't look like a camp -- does it? You haven't offered any context to tie it into the rest of the series in any way. Have you even suggested what the S-B trump cycle might be about? You appear to have no argument whatsoever in support of this reading. Is this just something you found with Google and you didn't bother to think about before posting?Rosanne said:
You seem confused as to why anyone, on a forum titled Historical Research, would quibble with such empty presentations. You've come to the conclusion that it must be because I'm a bad person, but consider an alternative possibility. There might be other reasons why such a presentation would generate a critical reply, why someone might compare your suggestion with other possibilities.
Let me illustrate. Here's one suggestion, generated somewhat like yours -- just a Google search. However, it entailed a more far-reaching search phase in which most of the results were discarded, and only the best one was kept. That one might actually explain a few things about the card and even suggest something about the larger design. First, the repeated caveat lector. Like most of the other subjects, even with the names written on the cards the subject matter is ambiguous to those of us who don't know much about history or languages other than English. That is why I have repeatedly emphasized the dangers of naive guesswork, and pointedly included my own guesses as stuff to be wary of. Are we there? Let's go on.
The figure depicted is a man with winged feet/sandals holding a great torch. The card is named Sesto and numbered 6. I have proposed a thesis that the overall design relates to the Late Roman Republic as seen by Christian historians. Working with that artifact and within that framework, what might Sesto symbolize?
Sesto Pompeo is the Italian name for Sextus Pompey (in Latin, Sextus Pompeius Magnus Pius; c.67 BC - 35 AD). Sesto "was a Roman general from the late Republic (1st century BC). He was the last focus of opposition to the Second Triumvirate." "Together with Metellus Scipio, Cato the younger, his brother Gnaeus and other senators, they prepared to oppose Caesar and his army to the end." This ties him to not only the Late Republic in general but specifically with other names on the list of Sola Busca trumps.
The obverse of a coin honoring Sesto shows the great lighthouse at Messina, where he won his victory over Octavian in 37 BC. The Pharos at Messina might be symbolized by the Sola Busca figure's great torch. (The S-B cards are sometimes quite free -- and even sarcastic -- in their depiction of identifying attributes, as in the case where the famous horseman Marius is shown riding a dead tree.) Sesto was defeated shortly thereafter, so his success was fleeting -- a transitory, essentially Pyrrhic victory -- which might be reflected in his winged feet. Note also that his adversary Octavian later became Caesar Augustus, the first emperor of the Roman Empire. (Caesar and Sulla had been Dictator, an official post but not quite emperor.) His opposition to the first ruler of the new Roman Empire fits well with the overall design I've proposed, in which Babylonian and Roman emperors are contrasted with figures from the Late Republic. And the transience of Sesto's anti-imperial victory is an echo of the transience of the highest triumphs, Nimrod and Nebuchadnezzar.
The End Of The Roman Republic
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/The_End_Of_The_Roman_Republic
Sextus Pompey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextus_Pompeius
War with Pompeius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus#War_with_Pompeius
Note that Sextus Pompeius is suggested as the proper identification of Sesto on the Tarotpedia page discussing the Late Republic. This identification seems much better than the others that have been proposed, by me and others, and it seems much more fertile in terms of generating leads for investigating the other subjects. It appears not merely plausible but highly probable. Of course, without a detailed explanation of the raison d'être of the series as a whole, we can't be certain.
Before you resume your complaints about my attitude, Rosanne, take a deep breath and try real hard to think about what I wrote. I'm flatly rejecting my own guesses and adopting someone else's suggestion. I'm doing that for the same reason that I adopt lots of other ideas from other people -- they are better than my own ideas. That's why I cite them, repeatedly.
I'm wrong about something every day. However, I can also learn, and make progress over time. That requires rejecting 99% of everything that others have written about Tarot, and most of the ideas I come up with on my own. Just because you found something on a Google search doesn't make it worth posting. Find a couple dozen different things, think about them and compare them, and present the best. Re-search means to look again.
Perhaps the most telling observation regarding your comments on Sesto is that they are wholly beside the point. You announced that "In considering how one deck may give you information about another deck in concepts, whether it be Tarot or not- is 2 cards from the Sola Busca as an example." Ignoring the grammatical problems there, and the consequent uncertainty about your meaning, it appears that you intended to give two examples of how one deck can shed light on another. In your first example you failed completely to even address that question: There was no reference to any other deck.
You like grading other people's work -- try grading your own.
9 - FALCO: A KNEELING MAN WITH CROWN AND SCEPTER
The artifact at hand provides a name, a number, an illustration, and it has a context in the rest of the deck. This is what needs to be explained.Rosanne said:
1. Name. You use the name as a fortune-teller might, as pretext for free association. You thereby reject everyone named Falco from consideration, without even a word of explanation. Why reject the obvious without even looking? Are you trying to get it wrong?
2. Number. You offer an incoherent comment about Hadrian being a wandering warrior: "As to why at V1111 - He was considered the greatest wandering Warrior, and traveled far and wide in his time." Are you suggesting, obliquely, that Hadrian was one of the Nine Worthies? If so, you need to say that, and then back it up with an appropriate citation. In what source works was Hadrian included as one of the nine? If that's not what you are hinting at, why not just tell us what you mean?
3. Image. You claim that the figure is the emperor Hadrian, and the figure is a crowned man with a beard and a scepter. Okay... but why Hadrian, and why is he kneeling?
4. Context. As with the discussion of Sesto, you simply ignore the relation of the card with the rest of the trumps. What does Hadrian have to do with the rest of the series? What is the rest of the series even about?
Let's try someone named Falco for the card named Falco.
1. The historical figure's name matches the card's name, surely a great advantage over free association. 2. No association with the number is apparent, but this seems no worse than your comment. 3. The figure is crowned and sceptered, but kneeling and looking upward, with his hands in a defensive gesture. This odd illustration does relate to the story of Q.P.S. Falco, upon whom the title was thrust and who was then threatened with death. 4. This is neither a figure from the Late Republic nor one of the hated anti-Christian emperors of Babylon/Rome. The only connection I can concoct with the hypothetical framework of the series is that this Roman consul was offered the position and refused it, making him a kind of anti-imperial icon. Whether such a status was accorded Falco in the late Middle Ages or Renaissance would be an obvious next line of inquiry, but in any case I have at least attempted to make a case. You have not even tried to explain the subject matter in a coherent manner.
Considered by whom? Are you talking about my observation that "There are several Sola-Busca figures whose names might suggest famous Roman writers from whom the history of the era is known"? That was offered among several other possibilities. This seems to be another example where a lack of reading comprehension is combined with taking a snippet out of context and distorting it to support your bias against me. Or did someone else jump to that conclusion? Either way, you are correct that it seems far-fetched.Rosanne said:
The most telling observation regarding your comments on Falco is that they are, like your comments on Sesto, wholly beside the point. You announced that "In considering how one deck may give you information about another deck in concepts, whether it be Tarot or not- is 2 cards from the Sola Busca as an example." Ignoring the grammatical problems there, and the consequent uncertainty about your meaning, it appears that you intended to give two examples of how one deck can shed light on another. And that is supported by your conclusion:
Your first conclusion is that the Sola Busca deck was influenced by earlier Tarot decks. That is beyond obvious -- IT'S A TAROT DECK! Of course it was influenced by earlier Tarot decks. But you provided nothing to support that obvious conclusion. (You note in passing that Sola Busca influenced the Waite-Smith deck, which is common knowledge and universally undisputed, but not material here as you made no comments about Waite-Smith.)Rosanne said:
Your second conclusion, that S-B was influenced by German decks, is also a reasonable one and nothing new. But like your first conclusion, you completely failed to address this subject! Not one word comparing the design of Sola Busca (particularly the illustrated suit cards) to German decks.
Is this a joke?
Am I being punked by an absurdest non sequitur?
Again, who doesn't?Rosanne said:
Are you simply pointing out that you don't always dispute the obvious? That's nice and all, but whether you agree with the obvious fact that the history of Tarot cards is a part of the larger history of playing cards, and that later decks are routinely based on earlier decks, it is clear that you can't make a single coherent argument supporting that position.
Incoherent babbling about Hadrian, who appears in the trumps of neither standard Tarot decks nor the Sola Busca Tarot deck, and random comments about virtues, etc., do not constitute making a statement, much less supporting it with evidence and argument. And simply offering weak guesses about the identification of two trumps taken wholly out of context tells us nothing about how those two trumps relate to some unspecified earlier decks. Is there a Sesto Camp or Concordia card in some other deck? Is there a Hadrian card, named Falco, in some 15th-century German deck?
As noted a couple days ago, it is difficult to discern what you are trying to say.
Best regards,
Michael
Ross G Caldwell
Moderation note
Okay, everybody here knows the rules. Stay on topic. If you have nothing to say on the topic, say nothing.
Personal issues are not topical. Ignore posts and posters you don't like.
Further posts which are not on topic will be removed without notice.
Ross
Okay, everybody here knows the rules. Stay on topic. If you have nothing to say on the topic, say nothing.
Personal issues are not topical. Ignore posts and posters you don't like.
Further posts which are not on topic will be removed without notice.
Ross
mjhurst
Ludus Triumphorum
In this thread I pointed out that Tarot was one of at least five inventions or re-inventions of the idea of trumps. The Marziano deck and Karnoffel both had trumps, peculiar subsets of the suited cards, before Tarot. Marziano's text suggests that regular four-suited decks were also used as trumps. A fifth suit to be used as trumps is almost certainly the reason for five-suited decks as described by Brother John, a supposition supported by the Liechtenstein deck where the fifth suit appears symbolically intended to be higher than the others. Tarot seems to be the fifth known invention of trumps.
As noted in previous posts of this thread, the term "triumphs" or trionfi can be used variously. One broad usage comes from Gertrude Moakley.
Ludus Triumphorum
http://ludustriumphorum.blogspot.com/
I'm posting on this today because Ross has just posted about another early (c.1450) invention of trumping. This appears to be a previously overlooked reference. Like Boiardo (before Viti turned Boiardo's deck into a game) this is apparently a literary "game", another kind of appropriation of the structure of the deck. In it, an Emperor card is described which "wins over all the other cards" -- Emperador que gane a todas las otras cartas. This literary usage provides "a poetic interpretation of the Spanish (Castillian) 48 card pack, dedicated to the Countess of Castañeda", which is unique in its specifics and yet which has parallels in other interpretative commentaries. It also included a unique set of associations with the four suit signs.
Check it out. (Also, anyone who is fluent in Spanish might want to give Ross some comments on the text.)
Best regards,
Michael
In this thread I pointed out that Tarot was one of at least five inventions or re-inventions of the idea of trumps. The Marziano deck and Karnoffel both had trumps, peculiar subsets of the suited cards, before Tarot. Marziano's text suggests that regular four-suited decks were also used as trumps. A fifth suit to be used as trumps is almost certainly the reason for five-suited decks as described by Brother John, a supposition supported by the Liechtenstein deck where the fifth suit appears symbolically intended to be higher than the others. Tarot seems to be the fifth known invention of trumps.
As noted in previous posts of this thread, the term "triumphs" or trionfi can be used variously. One broad usage comes from Gertrude Moakley.
Ross Caldwell has started a blog on which he has been posting some of his findings about early playing cards, particularly those related to trionfi in one sense or another. He named his blog Ludus Triumphorum.mjhurst said:
Ludus Triumphorum
http://ludustriumphorum.blogspot.com/
I'm posting on this today because Ross has just posted about another early (c.1450) invention of trumping. This appears to be a previously overlooked reference. Like Boiardo (before Viti turned Boiardo's deck into a game) this is apparently a literary "game", another kind of appropriation of the structure of the deck. In it, an Emperor card is described which "wins over all the other cards" -- Emperador que gane a todas las otras cartas. This literary usage provides "a poetic interpretation of the Spanish (Castillian) 48 card pack, dedicated to the Countess of Castañeda", which is unique in its specifics and yet which has parallels in other interpretative commentaries. It also included a unique set of associations with the four suit signs.
Check it out. (Also, anyone who is fluent in Spanish might want to give Ross some comments on the text.)
Best regards,
Michael
