"high" magick vs "low" magick

moderndayruth

Mallah

Seems to me that the difference is the level of preparation/education/training the magician goes thru before dabbling in stuff we really know very little about. That perhaps the ceremonial magician is more "protected" by all the years of work prior to attempting some of the workings that might be carried out.

Sort of like going to a Specialist versus going to the little old lady with bottles of strange herbs down in her cellar...
 

Aeon418

Seems to me that the difference is the level of preparation/education/training the magician goes thru before dabbling in stuff we really know very little about. That perhaps the ceremonial magician is more "protected" by all the years of work prior to attempting some of the workings that might be carried out.
I partly agree. But the question remains, why does a person have to go through all this preparation and training in the first place? If simple methods are effective, why go to all the hassle of learning elaborate and complex magical systems?

The trouble is that we modern humans are elaborate and complex beings. The sophistication of our minds means that the simple techniques employed by our ancestors might not work for us today. In many ways it's like asking a grown up adult to accept the reality of Santa. Unless you have the ability to revert back to a child-like mental state, or are a very superstitious (almost the same thing really), then it's going to be hard to get simple techniques to work. The developed mind of most modern humans will automatically start raising objections and nullify the whole thing.

Of course you can argue that this is a case for a return to a more primative way of life. But it's a trade off. The more primative you are, the narrower your outlets of expression become. The more complex you are the harder it becomes to "plug in", but your possibilities are infinitely greater.

If all else fails there's still sex and drugs. :laugh:
 

moderndayruth

If all else fails there's still sex and drugs. :laugh:
Well, i believe that's first, not last! :p I mean, how else does one develop interest in altered states of mind etc.? :confused: ;)
 

Aeon418

Well, i believe that's first, not last! :p I mean, how else does one develop interest in altered states of mind etc.? :confused: ;)
True. :laugh:

Although there's a world a difference between a fumble and grope in the dark and tantric sex. And merely getting stoned isn't exactly spiritual. Unless waking up in a puddle of your own vomit counts as a psychedelic experience. "Wow, look at all those trippy colours dude". :laugh:
 

Mallah

"Wow, look at all those trippy colours dude". :laugh:

Lol...Jimi really "sang the technicolor aria" didn't he?

But we seem to have STRAYED somewhat...


The point made by Aeon418
The trouble is that we modern humans are elaborate and complex beings. The sophistication of our minds means that the simple techniques employed by our ancestors might not work for us today. In many ways it's like asking a grown up adult to accept the reality of Santa. Unless you have the ability to revert back to a child-like mental state, or are a very superstitious (almost the same thing really), then it's going to be hard to get simple techniques to work. The developed mind of most modern humans will automatically start raising objections and nullify the whole thing.
is a valid one...they call a childs' thinking "magical thinking", after all. I've heard it said that in Ireland, the educated, and Christian, cannot see the "gentry"...but the local people who are less 'refined' can. Such "folks" would be much more likely to use 'folk magic.'

It's like the parallel I made between classical music--which grew out of church music (it's written down) and is often patronized by the elite class and educated-- versus 'folk' music which is more...organic.

I remember Joeseph Campbell, in his interviews with Bill Moyers, making the point about language, that there had to be different words for everything, depending on if it belonged to the elite classes or the poor.
 

moderndayruth

I remember Joeseph Campbell, in his interviews with Bill Moyers, making the point about language, that there had to be different words for everything, depending on if it belonged to the elite classes or the poor.

Ehem... but those would still label the same object or idea, if you see what i mean; those would be just two differently conditioned labels for inherently identical matter;
i am somehow getting the feeling its the same with magic...
I mean, a pot is still a vessel with certain use - even if you call it a vase or something else.
(You can choose to not name it too.)
So basically, the difference would be in people naming the pot - not in the pot itself (if we follow that logic, not that i would know. )
 

Barleywine

Ehem... but those would still label the same object or idea, if you see what i mean; those would be just two differently conditioned labels for inherently identical matter;
i am somehow getting the feeling its the same with magic...
I mean, a pot is still a vessel with certain use - even if you call it a vase or something else.
(You can choose to not name it too.)
So basically, the difference would be in people naming the pot - not in the pot itself (if we follow that logic, not that i would know. )

Ah, but if you called it a "chamber pot" instead of a "sauce pot," you would have a whole different set of associations, even if you raided the pots-and-pans cupboard in time of dire need }) Under normal circumstances I doubt anyone would confuse the two, though. (And yes, my relatives in Canada still used those back in the '50s when they had no indoor plumbing . . .)
 

moderndayruth

Ah, but if you called it a "chamber pot" instead of a "sauce pot," you would have a whole different set of associations,
yes, yes, yes... but pot's usage wouldn't change if you confused what its called and got all the wrong associations! })


And yes, my relatives in Canada still used those back in the '50s when they had no indoor plumbing . . .
Oh, at my late granmother's (and almost everyone's grandmother at this part of the world) house too! ;)

I did some reading online meanwhile and honestly, the various ways of differentiating high and low magic don't really make sense to me.
Somewhere i read that like once upon a time magic was one thing and one thing only; then somewhere between 1000 and 1300 ad practicing magic became taboo, the "high" magicians continued to justify practising theirs by christianising it and making it some how "higher" as they dealt with "angels" and "demons"...
Honestly, if you look up at youtube videos of lesser banishing ritual - and if you've been to a Christian Orthodox service, there seems to be quite a resemblance...