The Empresses Bag? (Noblet)

kwaw

lark said:
I think it looks like a grain bag...

snap...that's what it looks like to me too.

Kwaw
 

brujaja

<<...the shield (to protect)..the bag, bounty (to provide)...the wand (to rule.)>>

this reminds me of some recent research on threefold representation and fertility/mother goddess figures. i was reading here (http://invisiblebooks.com/Junk12.27.06.pdf under the Rotting Goddess section, starts about page 80) that the threefold representations of fertility/mother goddesses spoke to three roles: "Defender, Mother, Queen." Possibly this was a carrythrough from indo-european culture that was supposedly threefold as well: Royal/Priestly, Warrior, and Agricultural social strata. So the mother goddess figure would be present within all three. This is shown by the figure holding three objects -- some sort of weapon (while a shield works just as well) to show the Defender. The agricultural "Mother" was shown carrying a fruit or grain stalk. The "Queen," being Royal/Priestly, carried either a torch or was a central luminary figure (having lunar associations in some areas). The torch/light bearing elements call to mind the Eleusinian Mysteries. Often the "Queen" figure carries a libation bowl or other sort of container that holds a spirit ("ov" or "spirit bottle") to mark her access to the divine.

So, this isn't a direct 1:1 match, but it's interesting. Obviously "The Empress" carries three objects. Shield as "Defender" I'll buy. Scepter as mark of the "Queen" makes sense. And that bag -- which does seem like a bag to me, otherwise why would a sash overlap the shield? -- could go either way. A grain bag? Cool, that's a mark of the agricultural "Mother" aspect, perhaps. But it's also a container -- another motherhood reference, and analogous to the spirit-container as a mark of divine access.
 

mac22

I like the notion of grain bag....works for me....:D.

Mac22
 

Debra

It's a great thought, I agree. Any evidence to support it historically?
 

The crowned one

If I am looking at the same thing as everyone else it is simply the back of the chair/throne but miss-coloured.. as the lines match perfectly, and a sash knot and fancy cut end.

And I am not! LoL other side. It does resemble a simple burlap sack..
 

kwaw

It fits with the notion of the Empress as allegorical figure of the nation, state or empire; one of the prime function of state governance, of whatever size, is the ready supply of food. Of particular importance to those in power was the ready supply of cheap grain, indeed at places and periods it was even supplied 'free', the peace or unrest and potential to riot of the general populace being directly related to the availability or otherwise of cheap grain.

Kwaw
 

mac22

kwaw said:
It fits with the notion of the Empress as allegorical figure of the nation, state or empire; one of the prime function of state governance, of whatever size, is the ready supply of food. Of particular importance to those in power was the ready supply of cheap grain, indeed at places and periods it was even supplied 'free', the peace or unrest and potential to riot of the general populace being directly related to the availability or otherwise of cheap grain.

Kwaw

Again part of the reasons I like the grain bag notion.. plus it goes farther than "sash" in readings for me...:)

Mac22
 

kwaw

Debra said:
It's a great thought, I agree. Any evidence to support it historically?

Can't prove it historically but it certainly may have had some historical relevance or political/religious resonance for the period.

Up to the middle of the 17th century the the protestant (largely Calvinist) Dutch were the main traders and suppliers of grain to the rest of western Europe and around the mediteranian bowl sourced from the Baltic states and the plains of Poland. A bag of grain therefore, especially pre-1660, could be seen not only as a symbol of provision, but a reference to the Dutch who through their 80 year war with the catholic spanish seen by extention as exemplars of the religous struggles between such throughout Europe.

(Towards the end of the 17th century reliance on Dutch trade in grain had greatly reduced as changes in agricultural practice led to many western European countries growing and trading it between themselves.)

Perhaps the stillness of the Empress in the eternal moment represents the hope for or promise of peace in a Europe that had been riven by religious wars, massacres and mass migrations.

Kwaw
 

Elven

I saw agrain bag as well - but as I look at it on occassion - I see that there are two ways the bag appears - one open - and one where the flap is closed.

The vertical lines can either be seen as the inside back of the bag - or it can be seen as the flap of the bag ...

Can anyone else see this?

The bulging of the sack makes me feel it is full, closed and threaded along the top. But I wonder why the bag would be full and closed.

The open sack makes me think that there is something in the bag, but cannot be seen ...
I think of grains ...

I see it as a basket too ... Its the width of the lines and how even they are - not as thin and textured like a woven sack would be - at its top is smaller than its base ...
 

mac22

Elven said:
I saw agrain bag as well - but as I look at it on occassion - I see that there are two ways the bag appears - one open - and one where the flap is closed.

The vertical lines can either be seen as the inside back of the bag - or it can be seen as the flap of the bag ...

Can anyone else see this?

The bulging of the sack makes me feel it is full, closed and threaded along the top. But I wonder why the bag would be full and closed.

The open sack makes me think that there is something in the bag, but cannot be seen ...
I think of grains ...

I see it as a basket too ... Its the width of the lines and how even they are - not as thin and textured like a woven sack would be - at its top is smaller than its base ...

I see both the open & closed bag.....

mac22