Horary - What are his feelings for me ? - Receptions question

Kangourou

Hey everyone,

I have recently dipped my toe into horary astrology and begun learning it using John Frawley's 'Horary Textbook'. I asked a question about an ex in order to learn receptions and there are some things that have confused me. I cast a chart for the time and place of my question.

'What are T's feelings for me ?' 13h17m49 GMT+8, 12 May 2012, Perth, Australia.
The chart from Morinus is here: http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t401/kangourouaustralie/12May2012.png?t=1336924683

Background: T is an ex of mine from 2010 and we last spoke a couple of months ago. I wanted to move on, but he was upset that I was cutting contact with him.

Analysis: I'm represented by Lord 1, the Sun, with the Moon as co-significator. T is signified by Lord 7, Saturn. The Sun is peregrine in Taurus but is in his joy in the 9th house; the Moon is peregrine and cadent in the 6th, decreasing in light; Saturn is in his exaltation and triplicity, succedent in the 2nd house, but retrograde.

The Sun is in the face of Saturn, so there is very little interest on my part in T. However, Moon is in the sign and triplicity of Saturn, showing great interest in him; it's also in the detriment of the Sun - perhaps this means that I still love T and this makes me miserable ? Furthermore, the Sun is in the exaltation of the Moon, so perhaps I have a rose-tinted view of my own feelings for T.
Saturn on the other hand is in his exaltation and triplicity, so he is mostly concerned with himself. Saturn is in the fall of the Sun, so T loathes me, or dislikes me intensely at the moment. I also noticed that Venus rules both the Sun and Saturn by sign - but what does she mean here ?
No significators aspect any of the others.

Frawley recommends to also consider the Part of Marriage in relationship questions to signify the relationship between querent and quesited. Here it's at 26°11' Aries, so Mars is the dipositor of the Part. Sun and Saturn are both in the detriment of Mars, though Saturn is in the term of Mars - we both hate the relationship, but T can at least see some merit in it. Neither the Sun, Moon, nor Saturn aspect Mars.

Finally, both the Sun and Saturn are in major dignities of Venus - we're both very interested in whatever Venus represents. But what does she mean here ? This has me confused.
Venus trines Saturn, but the trine is frustrated by Venus slowing to first station and going retrograde. The Moon's next aspect is a square to the Sun.

My conclusion is that T actively dislikes me at the moment but is mostly concerned with himself - this seems like he feels slighted and thus feels resentful towards me. As a person, I am all but indifferent to him, but may respond to him if contacted or pressed. Meanwhile, my emotions are highly interested in him, yet hates my significator

the next square between Moon and Sun seems to suggest that my interest in T will increase or that they'll be tempered.

If anyone could help me as to the meaning of the Venus receptions and the meaning of the Moon in the Sun's detriment, I would really appreciate it ! It would also be very helpful to hear your interpretations and additions to anything I've missed.

Thank you in advance !

Minderwiz

I think you are on the right lines. It's always best to treat these sort of questions in stages because they can be overrun with significators. I've not got my computer with me so I can't do a full feedback but:

Firstly Sun and Saturn don't offer anything here that is particularly positive. The question is about his feelings, so yours don't really come into it - and of course you know them anyway. Saturn is in the Sun's Fall and its own exaltation, so you are right, he's mostly concerned with himself and does not like you. You're probably right in attributing this to tour decision to move on without him.

The ninth house Sun shows your interest in pastures and indeed ideas that are new and a significant change. Saturn in the second perhaps shows him having more interest in your money than you for yourself. Sun and Saturn are inconjunct , indicating perhaps that you are both seeing things from different and incompatible perspectives.

The Moon can seven as a cosignificator for either of you. But the Moon offers only a square to the Sun, not a favourable view and whilst the Moon likes Saturn, that offers little because of the prohibition of the square to the Sun. If the Moon is for you (the most usual signification) any positive feelings for him are prohibited by your own actions. You've made your decision and you will most likely want to keep to it.

In questions over marriage, Frawley follows Lilly and uses Sun (for the man) and Venus (for the woman) but only on condition that they are not already in play. As the Sun is your prime significator, it cannot be used for him. So Venus might be used as an additional significator for you. However as the question is not about getting married or restarting the relationship, I'm loathe to use it as a significator in the question.

At most Venus should be taken as ruler of the second (your money and moveable resources) and the ninth (your travel, higher education and dreams). Hence my comments about him being interested in you for your money and you being more concerned with your own future development.

I wouldn't use the part of marriage, given that you have no interest in that possibility.

Kangourou

Hi Minderwiz,

Thank you very much for your interpretation ! I saw that I overlooked the meaning of the houses here and I also forgot about prohibition. I'll be sure to read up some more on these two points.

The only thing is that I'm not sure what money of mine he may be interested in. I thought that being in 2nd house that it may have referred to advisors. As Saturn (an older man), he wanted to take me under his wing and "mentor" me which I resented down the track. Also, we live in different countries from one another (not sure if this may play into 9th house at all).

Either the way, the picture isn't pretty and I'm glad that I asked the question. The chart provides a clear picture of the situation and I have greater confidence in knowing that my decision to cut contact with him was the right one.

What process do you use for 7th house questions so as not to be distracted by too many significators ?

Thank you again ! I learned a lot from your response

Minderwiz

Kangourou said:
The only thing is that I'm not sure what money of mine he may be interested in. I thought that being in 2nd house that it may have referred to advisors. As Saturn (an older man), he wanted to take me under his wing and "mentor" me which I resented down the track. Also, we live in different countries from one another (not sure if this may play into 9th house at all).

You posted the question just as I was off on a short break so we didn't get to discuss the background in any detail. The primary use of the second House is for money, income and moveable possessions. In a Horary reading on relationships these are the likely meaning of any significant second house placement, unless there is evidence for another second house meaning. The use of the second for advisors, counsellors, legal representatives and seconds (as in duels or contests) is usually confined to horaries on relevant matters. However in this instance your last post suggested that that might indeed be a valid use in these circumstances. Marriages/relationships in which money is a very relevant issue (can he/she provide the lifestyle I want? Does he only want me for my money?) but in your case it might be that he wants the role as 'Svengali' to control you.

Kangourou said:
Either the way, the picture isn't pretty and I'm glad that I asked the question. The chart provides a clear picture of the situation and I have greater confidence in knowing that my decision to cut contact with him was the right one.

The beauty of horary is that it can crystallise issues and help you see clearly

Kangourou said:
What process do you use for 7th house questions so as not to be distracted by too many significators ?

I do a seventh house relationship/marriage reading in distinct steps. Assuming the chart is radical they are:

First look at Lords 1&7. These are the prime significators and you can be most confident of a positive outcome if they alone answer the question. Look for reception, dignity (essential and accidental) and connection. Ideally you want an applying trine or sextile or contact through Antiscia AND reception. Mutual reception without an aspect may well be enough too.

Secondly if there is no satisfactory answer above, check for Translation of Light - which is where a strong Moon is most likely to be of assistance (and also of course Collection of light if your significators are fast moving planets).

If the above don't produce the outcome then check the aspects of the Moon to see if she will bring about the issue by aspecting one or other of the two significators. This will not be as strong as the two above so there will be some doubt left over. Again Antiscia should be checked plus a check for Collection of Light (No planet can produce Translation when the Moon is involved as she is too fast).

If there is still no positive outcome, then is the time to introduce the Sun (for the male) and Veuns (for the female). Check for success using these two together, and also taken with the other party's prime significator (remember you should always be using a significator for 'him' and a significator for 'her'. The same checks apply though by now you will be able to do these quickly as you already know about the significators.

There''s also the possibility of using the Moon and Sun and Venus if there's still not positive outcome but the concept of remoteness suggests that the likelihood of a successful outcome is diminished unless there's very strong connections here.

I have real doubts about the use of Sun and Venus - Lilly took much of his method from Ptolemy and Astrologers influenced by Ptolemy. Chris Brennan makes the point that 'Ptolemy is a bit weird' in that he is out of step with the Astrology of his time and also is very cagey about his methods in some places. Thus he appears to both use House rulers as significators but also planets as natural significators and in places seems to suggest that it's planets, not house rulers that are important and elsewhere seems to suggest the opposite. The use of planets as significators seems to have passed into Jyotish, through Hellenistic Astrologers who were influenced by Ptolemy.

Thus for me it's not clear whether one should use House Rulers AND Sun and Venus, or House Rulers OR Sun and Venus or simply Houser Rulers (as other contemporary Astrologers to Ptolemy would have done). I therefore am increasingly treating Sun and Venus as the last and most remote step and the link between them would have to be very strong to overcome negative answers from Lords 1&7 (a situation which I have come across on a couple of occasions)

Other issues are practical ones, such as are we really talking about a 'marriage' with or without the legal ceremony, or a long term romance (and of course what if any is the difference), as Sun and Venus are 'only for marriage questions'. Frawley righly sees that in the modern world the legal contract is not what makes the marriage in fact, but only in law, but it does open something of a slippery slope. If I'm looking for a serious relationship which I hope is going to last a year or more, is that a 'marriage'?

The other issue is in same sex relationships - Sun and Venus may not quite fit. However I don't see why another planet cannot be used (assuming the technique is valid), so Sun and Jupiter for two males and Moon and Venus for two females (and there's always Mercury which could be used as it can take either sex)