saturn and pluto in 5th house - is it really hopeless?

Hi all,

I don't know much about astrology, so I'm seeking some opinion. I asked someone calling himself a "professional astrologer" what it means if you have Saturn in the 5th house, and he told me it means problems in love, all the bad things, and learning from your relationships. I told him I'd already been through a bad relationship that taught me a lot, and if I learned those lessons, can I now have a chance for a happy relationship? He said "I'm sorry, no". He also had mentioned Pluto is very bad in 7th house, and people with this never get married. I later checked, Pluto is in 5th house for me, just like Saturn, and they're both retrograde. And since Pluto is bad is in 7th house, it must also be bad in 5th, just like Saturn. So, does having Saturn and Pluto both retrograde in 5th house means I will never be happy in love? Thanks.

zayats said:

Hi all,

I don't know much about astrology, so I'm seeking some opinion. I asked someone calling himself a "professional astrologer" what it means if you have Saturn in the 5th house, and he told me it means problems in love, all the bad things, and learning from your relationships. I told him I'd already been through a bad relationship that taught me a lot, and if I learned those lessons, can I now have a chance for a happy relationship? He said "I'm sorry, no".

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I don't think he knows much about Astrology either. Firstly, we are not prisoners of our natal charts, doomed to never learn anything and repeating the same old issues. The chart is a guide to what we are born with and it's up to us to build on that and learn from our experiences. Of course some people do fail to learn but probably most of us, learn and adapt our behaviour and some develop quite a bit - you have some real freedom to break out and influence the world around you.

Secondly the fifth house is concerned with a variety of things, your children (when and if you have any), and how you enjoy yourself, including sport, games, wining and dining and romance. However relationships with other people, including romantic relationships and marriage are seventh house. The fifth is the house of 'Venus' activities. Having Saturn there will probably incline you to take your fun seriously, enjoy serious and analytical games and enjoy structured activities. At it's worst with a debilitated Saturn, it might well make you afraid of losing at sports or games, or inhibited in 'fun' situations, finding it difficult to join in. You might also be a bit self conscious about romantic relationships as a whole, rather than with a specific person. At it's best you might thoroughly enjoy mind based games and see leisure as only being valuable if you learn from it - time is too valuable to waste on frivolities.

zyats said:

He also had mentioned Pluto is very bad in 7th house, and people with this never get married. I later checked, Pluto is in 5th house for me, just like Saturn, and they're both retrograde. And since Pluto is bad is in 7th house, it must also be bad in 5th, just like Saturn. So, does having Saturn and Pluto both retrograde in 5th house means I will never be happy in love? Thanks.

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I have to confess, as many on this forum already know, that I pay no attention to Pluto whatsoever and the rubbish spouted by your friend is just that - rubbish. Even if I did take Pluto seriously, I'd echo my point above - you are not a prisoner of your chart and Pluto is not some demon that rules Astrology. Life is what you make of it, not what your chart says according to someone who thinks he or she knows about Astrology. History is full of people who had seemingly awful disadvantages and yet transcended them to be a success.

One of the things that amuses me is the way that many modern Astrologers accuse traditional Astrology (that before the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries) of being superstitious and obsessed with good and evil. Yet you have just shown a great example of modern Astrology at it's most superstitious and obsessed with 'evil' or at least bad things.

One final point, no one planet, not even Pluto, determines 'you' - your innate potential to develop is shown by a combination of planets, their intrinsic strength or weakness, their place in the chart and their connections with each other. The affairs of each house therefore are influenced not just by the planets in them but by their connection with other planets and Astrological points and (though this is not stressed by modern approaches) the planet that rules the sign on the house cusp.

How you use that potential needs further charts and further analysis, if we're going to make any worthwhile predictions. So put this 'astrologer' out of your head and enjoy life and have a good second or third romance

Thank you Minderwiz

Your post has been very helpful. I find it pretty scary that people in this day and age treat your natal chart in those "evil" categories you mentioned, seeing ones as doomed just because they were born! And that guy is very young (early 20s), and is already convinced that everything he's learnt is true, because astrology showed him his diseases, his uncle's conditions and other seemingly detailed stuff. It's quite scary because he works with people, as a psychic and astrologer, and supposedly also studied psychology - I'm old enough and experienced to distance myself from this, but imagine someone asking the same question as me, getting the same answer "no". I told him "so why don't I just go and kill myself?". And he said "No, because relationships are not everything, there are other things in life". I truly believe he's just too young and doesn't understand some stuff yet, but it doesn't change the fact he can do harm to people, and he is supposed to be helping. Well, that's life, I guess...

Another comment.

We are more than our natal chart. Think about that statement.

The natal start is both an "imprint" of what our role is within the cosmic scheme for the world, as well as being a set of opportunities, challenges and formative conditions that provide a launch pad for discovering ourselves.

This natal chart, after serving the above statements, moves onward and changes in many profound and complex ways through the intertwining cycles of the planets and their interaction with our natal imprint.

SATURN in the fifth house is all that Minderwiz indicated. Yet, it is also a teacher. As it moves through your chart, over time, Saturn brings differing house-meanings into play which may challenge you or bring opportunities into play relative to the way in which you use your 5th house Saturn-skills. Those "opportunities" are not Jupiter-like instances, but are opportunities to PREPARE yourself for what life might offer later. As Saturn reaches its natal chart angles and its own quadrature points, these challenges and need to be an aware and prudent person becomes more acute.

In essence, you are gaining experiences that will lead you to evaluate yourself at age 29 or so when your Saturn completes its first cycle and returns to its natal place. This is such a common and well recognized occurrence in almost everyone's life. You will need to look carefully at your life then and decide how the "mature" you needs to change and to move onward.

PLUTO is another matter as it will not complete its cycle in your lifetime. Pluto symbolizes transformation, unrelenting change, devastation, focus, the use of power, personal intensity, deep divisions that leave us with a duality in our lives such as before and after, loss and great gain (or its reverse), living two lives at once, having to both give and to manipulate such that we find a confrontational schism in our self.

Pluto also, in some instances where it affects us, links us into greater social issues or into people who rightfully or mistakenly see themselves as world changers. Pluto tends not to show up in our personal life except as a catastrophic event. Pluto is a social force in which we sometimes can get personally caught up in. If and when Pluto plays a role in our life, it can transform us. The secret is to finding a way of dealing with what seems inevitable and then gaining from it.

All of the above indicates the value of the early-studies astrologer in moving beyond natal chart astrology and into the use of some/many/all of the cyclic processes that permits capable astrologers to better understand themselves and others. Dave

zayats said:

Hi all,

I don't know much about astrology, so I'm seeking some opinion. I asked someone calling himself a "professional astrologer" what it means if you have Saturn in the 5th house, and he told me it means problems in love, all the bad things, and learning from your relationships. I told him I'd already been through a bad relationship that taught me a lot, and if I learned those lessons, can I now have a chance for a happy relationship? He said "I'm sorry, no". He also had mentioned Pluto is very bad in 7th house, and people with this never get married. I later checked, Pluto is in 5th house for me, just like Saturn, and they're both retrograde. And since Pluto is bad is in 7th house, it must also be bad in 5th, just like Saturn. So, does having Saturn and Pluto both retrograde in 5th house means I will never be happy in love? Thanks.

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Not at all! First off, I hope you didn't pay money for him to tell you you're going to have a miserable life. That would be a shame. Second, I will say having those planets in there doesn't make it EASY on your 5th house but... that's the point. Saturn is your grandfather, the one who makes you appreciate what you have now and is stern with you now so you grow up with a solid, and strong value system. The 5th house is all about light relationships, art, creativity, music, etc. You may feel restricted in those areas at times (of course aspects play a part too) It's kind of funny (and not, at the same time) that Pluto is in there with Saturn. Pluto destroys and transforms whatever it touches; Saturn is all about structure.... so it seems your relationships a) develop slowly and carefully - maybe that's in your natures, b) are very serious and intense, not to mention hot I just find it ironic you have Saturn and Pluto in the same house. They don't work well together at first glance because Pluto is always trying to reform what Saturn has built.

Some further observations on Saturn

Dave is quite right to draw attention to Saturn as the 'teacher'. Saturn is order and out of order grows structure and ways of defining Kosmos rather than Kaos. Without order we cannot build structures, either physical or mental and we cannot make sense of the world around us (physical and social) unless we have reference points and methods.

The learning process requires discipline - whether externally provided or through self discipline - in order to function and flourish. There is no learning within a random universe. However Saturn can also represent structures which become immobile, no longer developing and ultimately ossifying, atrophying and dying. Saturn, is Kronos - time and Old Father Time is death. So too much limit and structure is 'bad' for our development but some structure, especially with some flexibility and room for ordered grown is 'good'. Because Saturn makes us confront our limits (both physical and social) he represents that which we would prefer to ignore, challenges we would rather avoid and the associated fear that can stop us from acting.

Such challenges can be dealt with and either overcome, circumvented, or modified in a way that does enable us to continue to grow. I have a debilitated Saturn on my Ascendant so learning does not come easily and I didn't do particularly well at school till I was past 14 (half a Saturn cycle) but after that things changed as I accepted the challenge and worked (and Saturn, even debilitated rewards effort).

Saturn can be if not always overcome, certainly accomodated and harnessed to help us achieve our goals. The danger is always that we do not take on the challenge and remain limited and restricted more than is necessary and therefore not as happy as we might have been.

I'm not saying that we can overcome all challenges - I still haven't learned how to fly unaided - but we do need to know that we have reached a set of limits that we regard as acceptable, or at least it's acceptable to gradually nudge them outwards a small bit at a time.

Saturn therefore has both a 'good' side and a 'bad' (or at least unwelcome) side, it reminds us of our mortality and limits but it does not stop us from doing our best, indeed without it we might not be able to do our best because it can help us solve problems by analysing their structures.

I hope that someone will also say something nice about Pluto's 'good' side and show that unrelenting change, devastation and destruction are not it's only manifestations. It sounds like being to told the bad news is that you've got a week to live but the good news is that you've won the lotter (and the cheque can be collected in 10 days time)

I will say a couple of good things about Pluto. I'm a Plutonic girl being a Scorpio, with Scorpionic Sun conjunct exalted Uranus and with a Pluto in the 8th house conjunct my Mercury. Pluto gives power and I can feel it during his transits. This internal power I have relied on during extremely tough periods in my life like when I lost my father as a child. What I went through was like taken out of a textbook regarding Pluto. I lived in total darkness for months but as I was creeping there I was feeling an internal flame inside that was growing and I started understanding I was pushed out of there. He is currently transiting my 12th house and squaring himself, a pretty scary transit but it helped me face things I had burried deep in my mind and to clean my closets. I'm facing my fears on a daily basis, he's destroying me and building me at the same time. He has helped me finish relationships that I could not end otherwise, I didn't feel capable doing so until he came into play. Pluto is flame and power, like the fire that turns the sword into a lethal weapon. Whenever he challenges me I know I'm going to be tested hardly, even cruelly but I'm also being given the power to transform the experience into something I can use later in life. The conjunction with Mercury has also given me some amazing results in working with the power of my mind, I've tested this a number of times. Last but not least, I believe Pluto gives power over other people, to be used for bad or worse, preferably the former.

Pluto ?

There is not much "nice-nice" associated with Pluto on a personal level. First, let us consider Pluto contacts with other planets as we move through life.

Pluto doen't move far or fast within short periods of time. So, we may not experience many Pluto transits over a natal planet. If we do, that transit can drag out over a few years. It is more common for planets to come to Pluto. Pluto is two-faced. Operating as a social force, it requires one to have a connection in order to "feel" or "experience" Pluto as part of the outer world's changes and trends that somehow affect us in an individual way. Your house is taken by the government so that a new highway can be built, is one example. A change in another part of the world destroys your company by eliminating the need for its products ---- you are out of a job, suddenly.

The other face of Pluto is on a personal level. You live next door to a mass murderer who walks your dog for you. Your co-worker is very intense and wins a promotion instead of you. Your condominium association meeting are dominated by one person who talks loud and constantly and always gets their way over gardening issues and lawn care. Just some examples of how a Pluto person might disrupt your life.

Pluto is more likely to find personal expression as part of an aspect pattern or midpoint pattern in your chart. In such situations, Pluto is modified by the involvement with other planets and is not so much to be feared as to be used. Jupiter and Pluto often bring great success. Moon-Mercury-Pluto patterns, on the other hand, often bring depression and acute worry over daily matters.

Still, it is hard to say nice things about Pluto. Dave

I second you guys!

You were awesome!

I had the same problem.. it got me really down. I have Saturno conj. Pluto in Libra (7H)

Hello all!!

Good evening.
Reading all this about Pluto really gave me the courage to ask this question;
My son has Pluto 18 22' R in Sagittarius in the 12th house. this has always scared me specially cause is opposite Mercury, Venus and the sun.
Would it have a strong influence on him?? He does have a very explosive temper, it has nothing to do with education he has been like this since a baby.
I dont want to sound silly but can this mean a catastrophic event later in his life?
Also Pluto is sextile Neptune and trine Jupiter.
Thank you and advance and sorry is this question is out of place.