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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyros View Post
Well, strictly speaking, they're not beings that you can contact at all. One certainly doesn't pray to Nuit in order to have her grant wishes the way one prays to any other god. With Nuit being the all-ness and Hadit being "in the heart of every man" you're constantly interacting with them, in every experience and act and thought and breath. Their interaction is a fundamental rule of the universe, the subject and the object. Below the Abyss there is no separation between them but above is where you differentiate where one begins and the other ends. In simple terms, drinking from the cup of Babalon is experiencing life itself. What your link describes is that attainment of Adepthood is the process through which a person who has dedicated himself to the Great Work symbolically dies in the arms of Babalon and is reborn to his Will. The Cup is the world around you and infinite space.

The whole point here is not to impose old Aeon sensibilities of a pantheon of gods that sit in some cloudy heaven and grant indulgences according to their whims.

And no, every man and every woman is a star regardless of whether they are initiates or not, all are stars orbiting their own Will.



Why?
Old Aeon thought has great difficulty at times comprehending Thelema ... it is always trying to force it back into the old mold and interpreting it that way .

It just dont work. Its like trying to understand a heliocentric solar system while insisting the earth is at the center of it .

If Hadit is at the heart if every man, that aint above the abyss, inaccessible nor need complex ritual to access.

From the Gnostic Mass:

The PRIEST mounts the second step.

The PRIEST: O secret of secrets that art hidden in the being of all that lives, not Thee do we adore, for that which adoreth is also Thou. Thou art That, and That am I.

"I am the flame that burns in every heart of man, and in the core of every star. I am Life, and the giver of Life; yet therefore is the knowledge of me the knowledge of death."
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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
No no, I didn't mean that Thelemic deities are someone who sit on the cloud in the sky, and check what people do, or intervene on mundane affairs.

They are existing across the abyss in Thelemic terms. The abyss could be, deep inside under your subconsciouness or spritual astral plane. This part we don't quite know. That is why you have to meditate to find them. If you are really keen, then you become an adept learning more about the teachings, and do the magical rituals to be closer to them?

To me, that is what Crowley meant, when he said every man and woman is a star. Stars are far away, unreachable to all of us. They flickers come and go. They appear as if they are there, but they are out of reach.
How about trying this ; instead of making up yourself what you think he means ... why not read his writings that he wrote himself about what he means ?

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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
The existence of stars are meaningless, if we dont know and see them. It is like that the stars dont even exist to those who are oblivious to them. They only coming to being, and are closer to us, when we study them, and take out the telescope and try to see them.
All I have to do is walk outside at night .... they are pretty much 'there' . Maybe you live in pollution and cannot see them ?

I will give you a prize fir this statement though : The existence of stars are meaningless

Every culture on earth throughout all time has given stars significance ... great significance ... but not the Fool Moon apparently .

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Babalon may exist everywhere, or could be indeed the world as we know it, but it is meaningless to those who don't know what it is, or those who deny her.
Well, yes Mugaraboodoo is a God that is meaningless to me ... as is Lord Jehovah .

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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post

She only emanates to those who know, study and conjure up her?
I think you are gving the concept far too much objective validity

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
That was my understanding of Babalon. But I must admit, I have not done through readings on Thelemic deities as such yet. Any good books on the topic?
I would recommend going to the source - AC and not so much other people ... even if they have an internet site or a weird Babalon ritual youtube
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
Eshelman gives an interesting perspective on the abstract nature of the two Thelemic Deities and how Babalon may be more accessible.

" Nuit is a mother Godess and Hadit a father God. However, they are more abstract than the personal familial ideas expressed by parent gods. In Thelema the more accessible parent archetypes are expressed by stepped down versions of Nuit and Hadit associated with Qabalistic ideas, called Binah( the Great Mother) and Chokmah)the great father). These lower "octave" expressions are respectively BABALON, a synthesis of all mythic ideas of the Divine Feminine (especially moon and yoni) and either CHAOS ( a celestial father) or BEAST( solar phallic)."

"She (Babalon) is a Thelemic Goddess resembling the Hindu Shakti, incorporating many themes of the planet Venus, attributed to the Sephira Binah.(as an expression of the Divine Feminine in general, and the Great Mother in particular)."
yes, that is a good quote. 'a synthesis ' .... 'expressions' (note plural ), incorporating many themes .

and the Great Mother in particular ..... who is ???? .... Anima mundi .

The animating principle of the world and nature ... also attributed to Venus .
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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
WHOA!

Hold on there ! Everyman and every woman IS a star .... dont start disqualifying people ... heck , I myself am an initiate and I would never deny that birthright to people .

You are all stars folks ! Each with its own orbit and path - unique and individual .. and each of a color and beauty unique to itself.

You dont have to be a Thelemite or an initiate to be a 'star' ... although it may be reqiured to REALIZE that EVERYONE else is a star too .
My understanding of Crowley is not denial, but rather potential for the enlightenment of every souls and minds.

Surely Crowley must have said it allegorically, and you must then think about some of the qualities and nature of stars.

As I said previously, some stars are brighter, closer, visible and more influencial to us than others. Some are not, and not even known to us. Some are being born now, and some are dying, and dead.

Every men and women is a star, but stars are all different.

Your understanding sounds like saying, every men and women is a humanity or whatever, keep emphasising that every living being on earth be it initiates or not, whoever they are excluding no one.

Sure they are. but it doesn't really tell anything meaningful or significant for anything. People would think, eh? So what?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smw View Post
Eshelman gives an interesting perspective on the abstract nature of the two Thelemic Deities and how Babalon may be more accessible.

" Nuit is a mother Godess and Hadit a father God. However, they are more abstract than the personal familial ideas expressed by parent gods. In Thelema the more accessible parent archetypes are expressed by stepped down versions of Nuit and Hadit associated with Qabalistic ideas, called Binah( the Great Mother) and Chokmah)the great father). These lower "octave" expressions are respectively BABALON, a synthesis of all mythic ideas of the Divine Feminine (especially moon and yoni) and either CHAOS ( a celestial father) or BEAST( solar phallic)."

"She (Babalon) is a Thelemic Goddess resembling the Hindu Shakti, incorporating many themes of the planet Venus, attributed to the Sephira Binah.(as an expression of the Divine Feminine in general, and the Great Mother in particular)."
Great info. Thank you smw
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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Great info. Thank you smw
Your welcome

Elsewhere Elshelman makes suggestions on how to work with Babalon and the Beast.

"The best way to let them start seeping into your soul so that you know them more from inside out is to study(long & deeply) The Vision & The Voice which is the set of visions where BABALON made herself progressively known to Crowley. In a sense, the entire set of visions is an unfolding of Babalon both by their tone & their content."

It sounds a little like Crowley channelled her or maybe she channelled for him
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Originally Posted by smw View Post
Your welcome

Elsewhere Elshelman makes suggestions on how to work with Babalon and the Beast.

"The best way to let them start seeping into your soul so that you know them more from inside out is to study(long & deeply) The Vision & The Voice which is the set of visions where BABALON made herself progressively known to Crowley. In a sense, the entire set of visions is an unfolding of Babalon both by their tone & their content."

It sounds a little like Crowley channelled her or maybe she channelled for him
Again, great post.

I am planning to buy the Eshelman's book soon - The Vision and Voice and 776 1/2.
When I look at the Magus cards, be it Thoth or TOCM, they seem urging us to get the wand, the elements and set your temple up, and invoke Babalon, and unite with her.

Ok one might be a star, but an invisible, dying or even dead one, which is not much use. By studying, meditating and channeling the deities and uniting with them, one must become a bright star shining brightly.

The process and aim is, after all, what Crowley's Magick was all about, I would imagine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Again, great post.

I am planning to buy the Eshelman's book soon - The Vision and Voice and 776 1/2.
When I look at the Magus cards, be it Thoth or TOCM, they seem urging us to get the wand, the elements and set your temple up, and invoke Babalon, and unite with her.

Ok one might be a star, but an invisible, dying or even dead one, which is not much use. By studying, meditating and channeling the deities and uniting with them, one must become a bright star shining brightly.

The process and aim is, after all, what Crowley's Magick was all about, I would imagine.
I really don't understand why you keep pushing a hierarchy that doesn't exist. Maybe it is because, by your own admission, you haven't read much Thelemic writings. What you're saying simply isn't true.

While the aim of Thelema is indeed to align oneself more fully with their True Will, this need not entail any meditation or magick at all. Those things may help, of course, but it is quite possible to align yourself to your Will without them. There are those who's Will does not lead them to dedicate their lives to the Great Work, yet they can fulfill it all the same. There are no dead or dying stars, there are only those who don't know yet that they are stars. The Law is for All, no caveats, no terms, no small text, no exceptions.
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Originally Posted by Zephyros View Post
I really don't understand why you keep pushing a hierarchy that doesn't exist. Maybe it is because, by your own admission, you haven't read much Thelemic writings. What you're saying simply isn't true.

While the aim of Thelema is indeed to align oneself more fully with their True Will, this need not entail any meditation or magick at all. Those things may help, of course, but it is quite possible to align yourself to your Will without them. There are those who's Will does not lead them to dedicate their lives to the Great Work, yet they can fulfill it all the same. There are no dead or dying stars, there are only those who don't know yet that they are stars. The Law is for All, no caveats, no terms, no small text, no exceptions.
I have not been trying to push anything, but offered my understanding of Babalon as Thelemic deity.

I only got the Book 4 recently, so my readings are very little on the topic. But reading Book of the Law the first page, you can tell that the worships to the deity is being implied, and stars must be chosen.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." I read the Will as will to unite with the deity, and it must the law.

Love is the law, love under will. The love is the deity, and it can be emanated under the unification.

It is just my understanding, which could be of course different from others. But via more readings, studies and discussion, it may evolve.
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The Law isn't for me. Uncle Al must've overlooked me.
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