I-Ching Tarot: By Cheung Kwong Yin

Bernice

Many thanks for that link to the scans Paul. Now I can get a good look at them. May the Bluebird of Happiness sit upon your shoulder!

I did notice from the one-pic of the deck at the online shops, that the colours were rather dark or shadowed(?). But I still felt drawn to them.

Bee:)
 

Pagan X

This is my favorite I Ching deck, and I have all of the decks mentioned in this thread...

I think it is also the one deck most representative of the I Ching as presented/translated by the modern Taoist authors, such as Huang and Ming-Dao.
 

Bernice

Pagan X, I just found a rather negative review about Alfred Huang. Is this the 'Huang' you mentioned in your post?

Scroll down to, "A note on Alfred Huang’s I Ching books" here,

http://biroco.com/yijing/karcherhuang.htm

.........I still like the look of the deck and will be using it as an Oracle. But not necessarily one that portrays the actual I Ching.

Bee :)
 

SpiritOfTheDogz

Bernice said:
.........I still like the look of the deck and will be using it as an Oracle. But not necessarily one that portrays the actual I Ching.

Bee :)

Same here, don't really use it as I ching, just as an oracle; mainly I use it on conjunction with the mah Jongg
 

Pagan X

About I Ching translations:

You'll notice that I used a qualifier there, "As used by..."

There really isn't a single I Ching. There isn't a "best" translation. It's like finding "The Tarot": is that a Marseilles Tarot? Which Marseilles? An RWS Tarot? A Thoth?

The I Ching, as a book, exists in several versions in Chinese, with the "alphabet" used to write the book having changed over that time, and the spoken language having changed over that time. It's even worse than choosing a Bible translation, as it goes back farther in time, with a less specific language being recorded.

The use of the English term "translator" is somewhat deceptive. Every "translator" is also exercising a great deal of interpretation, usually in accord with a "school" of I Ching interpretation. The Taoist school are rather like our Western Ceremonial Magicians: they have a myth and they're sticking with it, (Tarot is based on the Cabala), damn the academics (it's a card game). That's Alfred Huang's perspective in analogy--and yep, he is ignoring the academics; he's teaching tradition and he's very clear about that.

I am not so forgiving of Karcher. Karcher just makes stuff up. Karcher cherry-picks from thousands of years of Chinese traditions and texts (and remember China is a big place) to "recreate" the original oracle of a shamanic religion. Karcher is basically beavering away at making a Chinese "Wicca" (here the analogy is Gerald Gardner). That's fine; just don't say it's The Original I Ching; we're beyond that now. We can handle made-up religion.

Now I am trying to think of the best ranslation that takes into account modern scholarship...you see, as a part of being accurate, they also are specific: Rutt's translation is of Bronze Age Chinese. Cleary has done translations of a Buddhist I Ching and a Daoist I Ching; Wilhelm/Baynes is of the Confucian school.

I'd recommend Richard John Lynn's The Classic of Changes "as interpreted by Wang Bi" (226-249 AD) as the best translation in terms of keeping current with modern standards of scholarship and context.

About I Ching decks:

In Pagan X's ideal world, decks are designed based on specific translations and schools of interpretation, so I Ching users can both find, evaluate, and use them within their preferred schools. Just like Tarot.

That given, then we can discuss the issues of "how does one represent I Ching Gua as scenes on cards". With six line statements, sometimes that's more than one "scene". Makers of I Ching decks usually focus on one line or the other; but the lines statements within one Gua can be very different in how positive or negative they are, so you can compare different decks and have very different takes between the same Gua. (You may notice that I am not using the term "hexagram". My Personal Radical Heresy is that I think the "hexagrams" are just numbers. That the six-line glyphs have no cosmic or meaning significance at all. None. Zippo. Nada.)

Most of the I Ching decks produced, in my opinion, are far too "meditative" and "Soothing": the producers are focusing on the image of the I Ching as an Eastern object of meditation. Plus, they tend to just redirect the user back to a book, so why have an I Ching deck? (Yes, US Games and Lo Scarabeo, I'm talking about YOU!)

All the Western created I Ching decks that I have seen are based on the Wilhelm/Baynes translation.
The Ceremonial Magic Tarot decks that have I Ching hexagrams on them are using the Legge translation via Crowley.

I am not familiar enough with the Haindl deck to be absolutely certain, but I'd put money on it being based on Wilhelm without the Baynes.

The Tao Deck is based on Wilhelm/Baynes via Osho; it is pretty and nice I Ching illustrations, but, again, too nice for me as a useful divination deck; and throw away the companion book if you want to use your own intuition at all.

The "I Ching Tarot" under discussion is also, in my opinion, the best deck for the Wilhelm/Baynes translation; and the Lynn translation; ok, we're all good.
 

lunakasha

Bernice said:
.........I still like the look of the deck and will be using it as an Oracle. But not necessarily one that portrays the actual I Ching.

Bee :)

I just wanted to add my two cents, because I also use this deck primarily as an oracle, and not necessarily following the I Ching or the companion book by Kwong Yin. I rely mainly on the imagery itself and the keyword first....and will refer to the book as needed for clarification.

I do find that some of the interpretations in the book can be quite negative, especially the section related to "Illness". I tend to take those with a grain of salt....otherwise I would find myself in the ER on a daily basis! :eek: LOL

The book can be helpful at times, especially the first two sections that give more detail about the imagery on the card and its intended, general meaning.

:) Luna
 

Bernice

Hi Luna,

I think I'll be doing the same as you! The deck should be here tomorrow (fingers crossed).

Hello Pagan X :)

Thank you for responding re. the I Ching.
Pagan X: The Taoist school are rather like our Western Ceremonial Magicians: they have a myth and they're sticking with it, (Tarot is based on the Cabala), damn the academics (it's a card game). That's Alfred Huang's perspective in analogy--and yep, he is ignoring the academics; he's teaching tradition and he's very clear about that.
That makes me smile :). Tradition, (sorry 'tradition') usually turns out to be the current flavour - Top 'o the Pops. I take your point that there is no 'single' I Ching. Thank you, I needed to know that.
Karcher is basically beavering away at making a Chinese "Wicca" (here the analogy is Gerald Gardner). That's fine; just don't say it's The Original I Ching; we're beyond that now. We can handle made-up religion.
I take it you're not a Gardnerian - and neither a Wiccan? (I would like to banish the word "wicca", along with the new-age take on the Craft - but that's just me).
In Pagan X's ideal world, decks are designed based on specific translations and schools of interpretation, so I Ching users can both find, evaluate, and use them within their preferred schools. Just like Tarot.
Now that is something that card publishers might take on board and attempt to address. It would be an enormous help for the likes of me.
My Personal Radical Heresy is that I think the "hexagrams" are just numbers. That the six-line glyphs have no cosmic or meaning significance at all. None. Zippo. Nada.)
Love the Heresy :laugh:, but I'm interested in the 'numerical' idea. I understood that the chinese don't (or didn't) have a 'numerology', from the few sources I've seen.
Most of the I Ching decks produced, in my opinion, are far too "meditative" and "Soothing": the producers are focusing on the image of the I Ching as an Eastern object of meditation.
..........similar to the 'sweety-fairy-angel-inner-soul-affirmation' oracles?
The "I Ching Tarot" under discussion is also, in my opinion, the best deck for the Wilhelm/Baynes translation; and the Lynn translation; ok, we're all good.
Thank goodness for that!
Now I hesitate to ask.....but I will. I've been looking at the scans of this deck and comparing them with the book by Tom Riseman, "Understanding the I Ching" 1980 version. It's the only I Ching book I have. His explanations seem to be thoughtfully & carefully objective - if you see what I mean.

Bee :)
 

Pagan X

Been an English Trad (descended from Gardnerian) Wiccan for thirty years....

just been a wise-ass for longer than that!

As for a Chinese Numerology, oh, girlfriend if you only *knew*, they have numerology up the yin-yang. You will find it described on websites concerning Feng Shui and determining auspicious and inauspicious numbers. In fact, there are several systems of numerology in terms of such calculations and relating them to the calendrical cycle.

Seriously, I'm being a wise-ass again, but there is a huge body of Chinese number symbolism, alchemy, elements: tied in with the I Ching over the millenia: the similarities to the concatenation of Greek number symbolism with an recombinent theory of reality, alphabets, and religious doctrine and mystical practices in the West is very striking. Our friend the Magic Square was well-documented in China before the barbarians of Renaissance Angel Magic got all over it.

I'm sure Bradford knows much more than I do; Bradford, where are you? You will find a wealth of I Ching hermeticism and a good translation of the I Ching at his site, just Google "I Ching" and "Bradford" and "Hermetics".
 

Bernice

The deck set has arrived! My nice baldy postmen delivered it about an hour ago....... off to open the parcel and see the cards.

Bee :)
 

SpiritOfTheDogz

you've had it an hour and not opened it yet, parcels don't last 30 seconds at my house before being opened