Money and Deck Creation

This thread is here because I was looking for a place to think out loud and possibly get some input.

I had an incredibly emotional reaction to what was actually a pretty innocuous post in another thread: "I have to admit that I am kind of happy that you wont get rich on tarot, because once money is involved it changes."

The content of the discussion was, oddly enough, that you're not likely to get rich creating Tarot decks, which I have no particular argument with.

My problem seems to be that I translated that into something like "If you're doing this for money, there's something wrong with you", with overtones of "we should be above all that".

And I don't know whether my reaction was based on emotional garbage that I need to get rid of, or the accumulated past frustrations of trying to hold rational discussions with people who are convinced that "true" art is done for love alone and making a living should be something else again.

Part of the problem may be that I would really like to believe that - it would be a much simpler universe, from my standpoint, if I could spend my time doing artwork and know that the universe would automatically reward my efforts. Works that way in books, right?

But to paraphrase an oldie, "the universe helps those who help themselves - sometimes". And sometimes not, and no way to predict in advance which way it's going to fall. So you need to be willing to gamble if you want to accomplish anything, and in this society, at least, what you gamble with is money.

Publishers are professional gamblers, with a lot invested in covering all the major odds bets. What they lose on one deck, or ten, they make back on half a dozen others. Individuals have to go with slightly longer odds, but the rewards, if there are any, can be quite a bit higher, proportionate to the investment.

So I'm now in the process of having decks printed, knowing it's a gamble, and figuring that if I'm investing money in trying for publication, it's perfectly legitimate for me to be looking for a monetary return that, hopefully, will be high enough to fund future work. I don't expect it, but I want it, and I'm working to get it. And I have trouble with the thought that it's fine if I do it, as long as I pretend to other people that it's not really the case.

I think that's all for a first run through. Thanks for listening, and thanks in advance for your input.

As the author of the original post which seems to have done a good feather ruffling, I wanted to do a little clarification as I feel a bit misunderstood.

I wrote:
"I have to admit that I am kind of happy that you wont get rich on tarot, because once money is involved it changes. Since the profits aren't high, right now people do it as a labor of love, which suits me fine. "

Which was interpreted as:
"If you're doing this for money, there's something wrong with you", with overtones of "we should be above all that".


That is not what I meant and I would never ever intentionally imply anything like that.
In fact I have every intention of making a living at art. I am certainly not ashamed at that nor would I want anyone else to be.
Being a starving artist sucks, and if you are too starving you wont even be able to afford the expensive priveledge of buying art supplies or god forbid a computer to do digital work, scan your corporeal work or read this post.

That having been said, there simply is not a lot of money in the tarot business. It is a small specialized market with consumers who I would gamble are on the (probably artsy) financial fringes of society.

So why wouldn't I want that to change so *we* can all get rich doing what we love? Becase if there were a lot of money to be had the *we* would probably not be part of it. It would be dominated by high powered professionals tossing around big money and big art degrees and resumes and client lists 10 miles long.
You wouldn't have me doing a deck, you would have Drew Struzan. They wouldn't even talk to me until I had a rep and spent 10,000 bucks to get in the 'book' or however much they are charging these days, and woo'd them with my slick tearsheets and my slick Art Center style.

In fact, I would never even get a personal rejection letter, I would only get a form letter stating "We do not accept unsolicited submissions (portfolios)".

That's what I was talking about.

Marie

Well, I'll maybe get the bad news out of the way first, at the risk of depressing everyone, it really is worth reading this article on publishing today - sales figures and all (get a day pass to Salon if you don't want to pay - you only have to glance at an ad for a few seconds!)

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/22/midlist/index.html

Publishing is hard - whether it's books, decks or whatever. If you read what went into sales of 10,000 copies of this writer's first book then you begin to get an idea of the realities - ouch!

Now, having got that out of the way, yes, it would be good to talk more on this thread. Thanks for starting it Astra - it's brave of you but I think it will be very useful and hopefully worthwhile for you as well as everyone else (certainly worthwhile for me).

Let me rephrase, I am glad this is a niche market because it lets those rare gems like us to get in on the fun.

FearfulSymmetry said:

right now people do it as a labor of love, which suits me fine. "

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Okay, I am going to really put the cat among the pigeons here (Tom will not doubt intervene if he sees fit ) and say that in fact most people do NOT do it as a labour of love. We forget that the "big" tarot publishers do it as a business (and that is NOT a criticism, just an observation) and that nowadays maybe 80-90% of the decks they publish are commissioned from professional artists and designers who in many cases know very little about tarot when they initially get the job (they are chosen for style, cost, speed, reliability - NOT principally for their tarot knowledge I'd guess - please correct me if I'm wrong) - and in some cases probably don't even care to acquire much knowledge about tarot (with notable exceptions and all that).

Marie, these ARE people with the degrees and the portfolios, in some cases (and actually, why not?) - they are paid to do an illustration job, and they do it. To a timescale and budget. Like most design jobs nowadays.

THAT is the reality. It sadly means that it's less likely that decks made from passion will be published - because most people want theme decks and they want them not to be quirky and individualistic and challenging but to be, well, pretty and kind of predictable (okay, okay, I said I would be provocative - please remember I'm not talking really about AT people - I'm talking about the majority of buyers who just pick something off the shelf to "have a go" at tarot - and who honestly are not very discriminating).

The people who put their decks up on this forum are not typical tarot deck designers, very far from it. Nowadays, typical tarot deck designers are mostly professions who will probably do a tarot deck one day, a book cover the next, and an illustration for cornflakes the day after.

It's like everything now - branded, themed and blandified to within an inch of its life. Tarot is not immune from this. All I can say is thank goodness for self-published decks - and of course the odd few great decks that do get through the process and find a publisher.

Provocative enough? ;-)

_________
sorry, if I sound cross about this in fact I'm not, just resigned in a way (and hoping to start something a bit different here in our own tiny studio - though it's an outside chance perhaps).

We've unfortunately entered a phase in the commercial world in which everything has got more monopolised and there is an increased pressure to take no chances - everything has to make money quickly (please do read that article from Salon - it has a lot of hard facts in it). I hope things will turn around again and we will see the rise of individualism and imagination - most things go in cycles after all.

This is an excellent topic that deserves thorough thought.

I first want to reference my thread Create my own tarot deck? Why would I want to do that? Which touches on reason why someone/anyone might want to make a tarot deck. Oddly enough it didn't touch upon the idea that you might want to make money or earn a living from it.

I think the bottom line is that if you want to be sure of holding your deck in your hands and have spare copies you can sell to people who want it you have to be prepared to self-publish.

Yes, they do hire artists/designers but they aren't paid much especially considering the amount of work they do.

I have also heard some say they felt ripped off with things like work for hire clauses in contracts which take away peoples rights to their work ( for anyone unfamiliar with the term it means that the art was done during employment so the company owns the copyright not the artist). And some other real interesting horror stories.

I don't know about some of the Eropean publishers, does anyone actually keep an artist or two on the payroll? That would be a nice job.

You are right, there are the designers and portfolios and resumes, I spoke too soon in my flustered state, and maybe I am a bit elitest in that I prefer a tarot designed by someone who loves and cares about tarot as opposed to one done by someone who's only doing it for the money, no matter how meager.
And even among the big publishers of tarot I think they all have or at one time had a real love for the cards and/or the alternative belief genre.

Another thing to note is that I have talked to a few people who were originally hired to design a deck not knowing anything about tarot and then fell in love with tarot and have made it part of their lives ever since.

Lastly, let me be clear, I do not look down on anyone who does make money on tarot, more power to anyone who can manage it! It was never my intent to say that at all.

Marie
(who is still licking her wounds)

Tom,

That's an interesting point. I think that most people on this forum feel embarrassed to say that they would like to make a living from their work - we feel that it's not very nice to talk about money. So I'm very grateful to Astra for asking us all to confront this and be honest about it.

I would LOVE to make a living from designing decks. But honestly I don't think it's possible. If we are very fortunate we may make a living from designing decks, producing other things (publications and products) and from doing the odd bit of other design (though we try not to take on commercial work on the whole). That's fine. I love the lifestyle (yes, I know I moan about being in the studio all the time, but you know it's my choice and basically it suits me - actually suits US) and I never expected to make a fortune doing this kind of thing. I made far more money from the "list of clients a mile long" (Marie, that did not ruffle me, it made me smile in fact - I like that you say what you think and I guess it was not lobbed at me - anyway I ducked!) but boy, was I bored most of the time (I had lovely clients - one of them is writing a book for us right now, but the work was often so dull corporate - yawn!)

So - Astra has just pointed out that to do more than one deck - to keep going and get better - you have to get some income from each one - at least enough to keep you while you do the work. This is honest and it's also true. I think she should be supported in saying this.

FearfulSymmetry said:

Yes, they do hire artists/designers but they aren't paid much especially considering the amount of work they do.

Another thing to note is that I have talked to a few people who were originally hired to design a deck not knowing anything about tarot and then fell in love with tarot and have made it part of their lives ever since.

Lastly, let me be clear, I do not look down on anyone who does make money on tarot, more power to anyone who can manage it! It was never my intent to say that at all.

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I agree with all that - thanks for pointing it out - and actually I never thought you were criticising anyone. I was deliberately being provocative because sometimes I do think it's a pity that the people who do most of the design for most of the decks do not ever come near this forum - I'd guess because they think of themselves mostly as professional illustrators, not as people with an interest in tarot (I may be totally wrong, and I'll take this back unreservedly if I am).

I'm really sorry if there are any wounds to lick - you don't deserve any swipes from anyone here! Talking money is one of those things that tends to get sensitive - but it's good to air it.

baba-prague said:

I made far more money from the "list of clients a mile long" (Marie, that did not ruffle me, it made me smile in fact - I like that you say what you think and I guess it was not lobbed at me - anyway I ducked!) but boy, was I bored most of the time

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OH! Sorry, I totally didn't aim this at anyone here, and it didn't even occur to me that someone might think so. That's just me moaning about how I have gotten beat out for a good art job by someone with more references and less skill. Or more education, or more MONEY for promoting themselves. Apparently those are personal issues I have and don't concern anyone here.

Anyway, I will go run off now before I have to start gnawing on my ankle - for lack of any foot left to eat.


Marie