Le Mat as Giant "Bel-Gargan"

firemaiden

ON the lycos site, the article for Le Mat states that le Mat is the character from french folklore (mythe gaullois) of le géant passeur Bel-Gargan, or the "passer" "carrier" Giant - later Christianised as Saint Christophe = porte-christe = he who carries Christ.

Has anyone heard of this association? and what do you make of it?

Here is the article Le Tarot de Marseille: le Mat

Here is a link to English translation of the article
 

Rusty Neon

The association of Le Mat to the giant Bel du pôle is also mentioned in Kléa's book _Au fil d'arcane_ at pages 482-483.

What I make of this association is just like any other association that tarotists make. They help us to see the tarot cards from differing perspectives. In each perspective, there is a parcel of truth.
 

Jewel-ry

Re: Le Mat as Passing Giant "Bel-Gargan"

firemaiden said:
Here is the article Le Tarot de Marseille: le Mat

I will translate the article if anyone is interested.

If its not too much trouble FM I would really appreciate a translation :confused:

:)
 

tmgrl2

Very interesting article, firemaiden...I read it as best I could...never heard of this one nor of the connection....I'm sure many will await your translation which would be far more accurate than mine....but I get the basic idea...I like the part where it says (if I'm right that he has nothing left to learn in this world...?)...

Thank you for starting this thread...As I learn more about he history of various interpretations of The Fool (and the Bateleur)
I feel as though we need to keep open the dialogue of looking at Le Mat in many different ways....when we even call the sequence of cards "The Fool's Journey" it doesn't sit well with me, because just that title implies one accepts that as a premise..it is ONE premise that some accept and I respect that...Even Robert O'Neill, whose history of iconology I review from time to time, leaves that as a possibility when the decks were created, but "paints" the Fool as having an "ambiguous" role.

Thanks to Rusty for re-directing me to Klea..I'm dying to get into her books more. There is so much there. In fact, she spends pp 473-494 on Le Mat. Her opening sentence is(my translation summary) "The number is absent from the Aracana, which therefore positions it nowhere, and serves as a bridge between the others"...Bridges don't sound like inititators...I personally like the idea of the Fool being nowhere and everywhere and anywhere and playing various roles....I will read her chapter for sure this summer, if not before.

As I skimmed ahead in Klea's book to Le Bateleur...she refers to Le I (Batteleur) as being,(again my translation summary)" in effect, the point of departure of all of the other numbers...their 'cause intiale' which I would translate as the driving force or beginning purpose/cause...the Mother-Father androgynous being, rational and irrational....principal of causality in the of infinite worlds....with his four Elements of Creation ...that he is the main coordinator of these elements....He, therefore, incorporates all the Numbers and finds himself in all...He is THE FIRST CAUSE from which follow all the others..."

Anyhow, I was translating as I read....Le Bateleur gets pp 495-515....too bad, so much good material about the Tarot is written in French.

One of the most disturbing elements in Mary Greer's book, Tarot for YourSelf, is that in an otherwise wonderful chapter on the history of Tarot, she says nothing of the Tarot de Marseille...this bothered my greatly since she was so in-depth and historically sequential about the rest. It's like talking about Christianity and Christ and mentioning all the Christian churches, but "forgetting" about the Catholic Church...It's not about one's beliefs, it's about presenting a complete picture...not one with a glaring omission. I keep going back to her chapter on history searching for a crumb or two about the Tarot de M...she had a crumb about a deck in Paris in 1392...

Enough...I got started...if I keep going, I'll translate the whole chapters!

terri
 

tmgrl2

Rusty Neon said:
Here's a google.com translation of that article:

http://translate.google.com/transla...+gaulois%22+tarot&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

It gives one the gist but is far from perfect. I get a kick out of how Mat was translated as Checkmate, one of the dictionary meanings of the French word Mat, but which isn't the tarot-contextual translation of that French word.

I agree, Rusty...the Google translation gives a gist...but I am really uncomfortable with translating it as Checkmate...if one looks in a hard copy English or French dictionary and goes to the "old" French meaning...it is more like, "dull, defeated, stupifed, senseless" from the word "matt/matte" as in a "dull finish".....checkmate doesn't cut it for the conclusion of a translation of the passage...



terri
 

Rusty Neon

Terri ... It depends on which dictionary you look in. I just checked in the Robert & Collins French-English-French dictionary. One of the translations for the French word 'mat' is 'checkmate'. The dictionary also shows the translation as 'dull', etc. Obviously, the dictionary gives no tarot-contextual definition.
 

tmgrl2

firemaiden..ty for translation...are you possibly still working on the final paragraphs? As I look at the last paragraph...I'm going back to the Google after I paraphrase how I translate it...

I would summarize the final paragraph after the part about St. Christopher as:
"Like Hermes, Le Mat is the untier (delier is to untie...perhaps 'delieur' would be 'one who unties') that which unblocks conflicts, attitudes, intervenes to allow the appearance of novelty, adding new information to a situation that is disorderly or noisy or (we) can consider him the instigator? instructor? who permits access to a different level of consciousness."

This says to me, Le Mat can intervene almost anywhere....

terri

you are probably translating as I post this...sorry, if I intervened too soon....
 

firemaiden

Rusty Neon and Terri, there is already an entire thread which explores the meaning of the word mat in exhaustive detail.

card titles - Le Mat

I'd rather this thread concentrate on the myth of the Bel-gargan, and his relation to the "Fool" card.
 

tmgrl2

Rusty Neon said:
Terri ... It depends on which dictionary you look in. I just checked in the Robert & Collins French-English-French dictionary. One of the translations for the French word 'mat' is 'checkmate'. The dictionary also shows the translation as 'dull', etc. Obviously, the dictionary gives no tarot-contextual definition.

I agree, Rusty...checkmate is there...but as with multiple meaings of words in any language, the one that suits the situation is the one I would go with...I see "delieur" as " one who unties" "unblocks"....it says Le Mat is the "delieur".....one who reselves situations, unblocks them..Even the Google translation goes on to talk about this...also Google translates "initiator"...while the French dictionaries give "instigator" or "organizer" or "instructor" all different from one who "initiates."

firemaiden...I go with your translation...just wasn't sure if you caught the last couple of paragraphs...My print preview showed one page and when I printed it, it left off last part.

terri