Thoth Pips

Probably off topic, but I'll allow myself since I say so. How do the planets of the decans affect the Court cards? I'm trying to build a profile for each using the elemental attribution, two parts of one sign and one part of the other (shadow? detriment? the one before, you know). The complete prifile is built of all three decans, but I'm trying to go further and isolate each planet with its sign, so each Court is basically three-in-one. Looking, for example, at the Queen of Wands, which I'm studying now, she has two Mars, but I get the feeling they behave differently, since they're in two different signs. Like, someone born at the beginning of the Q/W would be affected by Mars in Pisces, and would have perhaps a more conflicted personality that someone born in the second decan of the Q/W, of Mars in Aries who would have less of a Piscean character, and have a bit more Aries.
Is any of this making sense?

ETA: This is even further complicated by the fact that Mars in Aries is Satiety, which may make sense on its own, but less so in the Queen.

ETA: I have doubts as to whether dividing the court this way is desirable or even feasible. It would seem that the decan in Pisces serves to support Aries in such a way, but as the Queen is mostly Aries, Mars in Pisces would perhaps denote a different person. For example, the intuitive, mystic aspects of Pisces in light of the Queen would perhaps show she uses these qualities as a means to an end, rather than for their own sake (a fortune teller, perhaps ). Mars in Pisces would accentuate the self-pity of Pisces, but in light of Aries would perhaps be transformed to self-righteousness. Taking that away would seem to make something else entirely... even if I'm not concerned about the corresponding pip, because it is in a different world, it does mystify.

Maybe I should start a separate thread?

closrapexa said:

Probably off topic, but I'll allow myself since I say so. How do the planets of the decans affect the Court cards? I'm trying to build a profile for each using the elemental attribution, two parts of one sign and one part of the other (shadow? detriment? the one before, you know). The complete prifile is built of all three decans, but I'm trying to go further and isolate each planet with its sign, so each Court is basically three-in-one. Looking, for example, at the Queen of Wands, which I'm studying now, she has two Mars, but I get the feeling they behave differently, since they're in two different signs. Like, someone born at the beginning of the Q/W would be affected by Mars in Pisces, and would have perhaps a more conflicted personality that someone born in the second decan of the Q/W, of Mars in Aries who would have less of a Piscean character, and have a bit more Aries.

Is any of this making sense?

ETA: This is even further complicated by the fact that Mars in Aries is Satiety, which may make sense on its own, but less so in the Queen.

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<Hands closrapexa Occam's Razor>

It might be more useful to simply take it at the elemental level. So, by sign, the Queen of Wands would have one part Water to two parts Fire. (Piscean compassion slightly tempering the remorselessness of Aries.) Then add the planetary overlay: two parts Mars to one part Sol. Mars would modulate the indulgent nature of Pisces, making it less self-sacrificing and more self-interested; on the other hand, Mars and the Sun would gleefully stoke the Arian fires. Their planetary natures are both hot and dry, emphasizing the choleric humour of Aries. So let's add it up: one part Water (last decanate of Pisces) to five parts Fire (first two decanates of Aries, and three fiery planets presiding). Clearly, any kinder, gentler qualities would be crowded into the background. Patience would not be her strong suit; aggressiveness would be more to her liking. Mars in Pisces sitting behind all that Aries energy (Aleister Crowley uses the term "imprisoned" in the 12th House - envision a pressure-cooker) means that she can get really "steamed up" before she lets fly! She will only listen to feeble excuses for so long, then: Judge Judy with a flame-thrower.

ETA: (Take 2) I'm thinking a tea-pot might be a better Piscean analogy than a pressure-cooker for Mars in that sign. Whenever I see Mars in a Water sign, I'm reminded of "steam." In Pisces that steam would most likely be less volatile (by which I mean less unruly, more humane) than in Cancer (its fall) and less brutish than in Scorpio (its traditional rulership). The pressure-cooker belongs more to Mars in Scorpio, also the steam engine. Mars in Cancer makes me think of geysers and hot springs.

ETA: (Take 3) Taking this concept a step further, note that there is no Air and no Earth in this equation ("elemental voids" in astrological terms). We might expect a shortage of reasonableness and practicality as well. My personal experience of the Queen of Wands is that she is gracious only as long as things are going her way; cross her and the gloves come off (even if forbearance might be in her best interests).

ETA: Oops, I just remembered that a "tea-pot" to an American may not be the same as a "tea-pot" in another culture. We put ours on the flame and wait until it shrieks at us, then pour the boiling water over a tea-bag in a cup; I know others pour already-boiled water into the empty pot with the tea in it and let it steep. That distinction would materially change my analogy, so I wanted to clarify.

closrapexa said:

ETA: This is even further complicated by the fact that Mars in Aries is Satiety, which may make sense on its own, but less so in the Queen.

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I wanted to take this one as an aside. As an astrologer, I've always had some niggling complaints about Crowley's attempts to correlate his card titles to the meanings of the planet-and-decanate combinations. But if I recall correctly - and it's hard to see on the card so I dug out my BoT - Satiety (10 of Cups) is Mars in Pisces, not Aries. In that sense I have no problem with the correspondence: Mars doesn't know when to turn off the spigot, and Pisces isn't paying attention.

Barleywine said:

I......In that sense I have no problem with the correspondence: Mars doesn't know when to turn off the spigot, and Pisces isn't paying attention.

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But the 10 of Cups is very much at home in Malkuth. I have trouble thinking of it as satiety. Too much of a good thing? Maybe it could mean something like inappropriate happiness, or a manic state of mind?

It just makes me think of Psalm 23, "My cup runneth over." Too many blessings? Hard to imagine.

LRichard said:

But the 10 of Cups is very much at home in Malkuth. I have trouble thinking of it as satiety. Too much of a good thing? Maybe it could mean something like inappropriate happiness, or a manic state of mind?

It just makes me think of Psalm 23, "My cup runneth over." Too many blessings? Hard to imagine.

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On the face of it, it looks like "too much of a good thing" (and that's as far as I used to take it). But Crowley indicates in more than one place that the Tens have "run out of gas," in a sense. The initial burst of energy in the Ace has reached ultimate concrete expression in its element and is nearing exhaustion. It is due for a shake-up. He also says (again, I remember it but can't quote "chapter-and-verse") that the Malkuth of one world is the Kether of the next lower world, and that putrefaction of the old is essential to emergence of the new. So the "over-stuffed" 10 of Cups may be fat, dumb and happy in Malkuth but it can't linger there very long. (I suppose the 10 of Disks must presage an entirely new cycle of emanation.) My advice with the Tens has typically been "Don't get too comfortable; don't rest on your laurels; look over your shoulder for the 'next wave' and catch it; stay light on your feet." (How about "Winter is coming!" for the 10 of Disks ) And with the 10 of Swords I might say "Get ready to pick up the pieces." (Or as Steely Dan sang: "Any minor world that falls apart comes together again.") It's too tempting to become complacent, so the antidote and corrective (purgative, maybe?) for the 10 of Cups is the Ace of Swords; Mars in Pisces is just pulling a covert "inside job" in anticipation of the change.

ETA: Oops, I wanted to speak to your examples. "Inappropriate happiness," yes; I might call it "misplaced optimism." Not sure where you're getting "manic state of mind," unless it's the upset condition of the cups and the anxiety that implies, or - in Crowley's words - "the gross, violent and disruptive force" of Mars attacking the "supposed perfection" of "peaceful and spiritualized" Pisces. (I must stop this free-association, now you've made me think of "water-boarding" . . . )

Yes, the 10s are transitional. That makes sense.

closrapexa said:

Probably off topic, but I'll allow myself since I say so. How do the planets of the decans affect the Court cards? I'm trying to build a profile for each using the elemental attribution, two parts of one sign and one part of the other (shadow? detriment? the one before, you know). The complete prifile is built of all three decans, but I'm trying to go further and isolate each planet with its sign, so each Court is basically three-in-one.

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In continuing to explore the effect of the decanate rulers on the Court Cards, I've created two tables. One correlates the "planetary humours" of the rulers to the decantes as a way to see if the elemental natures of the planets reinforce or conflict with the elements of their decanates. I tried doing it with sign rulerships but it got awkward because all of the traditional planets except Sun and Moon rule two signs of contrary element. I relegated considerations of rulership, as well as other dignities and debilities, to a second table.

The second table correlates the dignities and debilities of each of the ruling planets to its decanate, to see if the "planetary powers" are aligned with or working at cross-purposes to the decanate elements.

These refinements give a very interesting picture of the complexities available from such an analysis. I've already discussed the Queen of Wands at length. Here's another example:

The Prince of Cups is given to the last decanate of Libra and the first two decanates of Scorpio. Therefore, he starts with one part Air and two parts Water. The associated decanate rulers are Jupiter, Mars and Sol. Jupiter is considered "sanguine," or "airy," Mars is "choleric," or "fiery," and the Sun is also "choleric," still "fiery" but a bit more "temperate" than Mars (note that these "humours" have little or nothing to do with modern sign rulerships). Taken together, the Prince of Cups winds up with two parts Fire, two parts Water and two parts Air, with an "elemental void" in Earth. As I see it, this would make him well-balanced but with an "Achilles heel" (no Earth); he would probably have little "staying power" and could easily have the legs cut out from under him.

Regarding "planetary powers," the last decanate of Libra is ruled by Jupiter. Jupiter is one of the "Triplicty" rulers of Air, a fortunate indication. Ruling the first decanate of Scorpio, Mars is well-dignified: it is one of the "Triplicity" rulers of Water, is in the sign of its rulership, and is also in its "Joy," all positive factors. The Sun ruling the second decanate of Scorpio has no important dignities or debilities and would therefore have a smaller role. All things considered, Mars is the heart of this combination. Under Mars in Scorpio (with an undertone of Libran Jupiter), the Prince would be energetic, passionate, demanding, forceful when need be, prone to intolerance but also fair-minded when it serves his purpose; "morality" is a somewhat elastic concept to him. Crowley makes much of the power and passion of Scorpio here, and the roundly-dignified Mars brings it into sharp focus.

I'm not a subscriber, so I'm not sure I can post links to these tables. Send me a PM if you want to play with them and I'll see if I can mail them, but if you're a Thoth newbie or have no grasp of astrological fundamentals, they might just confuse you.

Very interesting. If you like, send them to me, I'll send you my mail by PM and then I can post them.

I've been continuing my explorations of the Courts in relation to the decans less astrologically and more symbolically, relying mainly Picatrix and Ibn Ezra (through Scion's guide to the decans) and although I haven't gotten far (still on the Queen) I am finding interesting correlation between them.There is a really nice entrance, cardinality and exit to the decans of each Court when looked at this way. Since I'm only at the beginning I can't comment on what I don't know:

Mars in Pisces: (Picatrix): A sad man and of evil thoughts thinking of deceptions and treachery; before him a woman and an ass ascending her, and in her hand a bird. And this is the face of ambition and of lying with a woman of great appetite; and of seeking quiet and peace.

By itself not much to go on, but still suggestive. This is the first Queen, in some ways the "real" Queen who performs the Binah role of performing as the shell into which a universe is inserted. The first decan, although in Pisces, seems to serve as her introduction, and hints at the mutability of her Knight, who wished to consort with her and find "quiet and peace." If she is the lascivious woman, all the more, since she remains a virgin notwithstanding, yet her Aries traits are perhaps directed inward, modulated through Pisces. Those traits have not yet had time to wax. This, I think, is where the unstable elements of the Queen come into play, as per the Book of Thoth:

There is a tendency to be fickle, even disloyal; the ideas which she obeys make no deep or permanent impression. She will "cleave to the little boy and let go the man of age and experience" or the reverse (lines 2 and 3) without realizing what she is doing. There is liability of fits of melancholy, which she seeks to cure by bouts of intoxication, or by panic-stricken outbursts of ill considered fury

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In a way, Satiety is what the Queen is feeling after being knocked up, and the instability of the decan is what leads to the tumbling down of the Tree.

Now, moving on to Mars in Aries: (Picatrix): The form of a black man, restless and great in body, and having red eyes and holding a cutting axe in his hand, girded about with a white garment, and there is great worth in this face. And this is the face of strength, high rank and wealth without difference.

This is where the Queen's Aries influence is at its fullest. Dominion, the Two of Wands, is at Chochma forthing out to Binah, but where the essence of poweris at its strongest in the Queen. There is no conflict here, only power contemplating itself.

The general characterisitics of the Courts are relatively easy to get a handle on, and this is probably why the appear almost identical in so many sources. However, it appears that in their division that the Courts become real people. Not much so far, but enough to expect that in Venus in Aries I'll find the Queen's exit, but I'm too tired right now. Still, my early attempts to separate the decans into three types of personality, divided by dates, may not have panned out immediately, but after going through the Picatrix I still have hope that I'll make some progress there as well. Can't hurt to try. By this stage I'm used to doing addition and subtraction of abstract ideas.

closrapexa said:

I've been continuing my explorations of the Courts in relation to the decans less astrologically and more symbolically

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I took it entirely from an astrological perspective because the decanates are an astrological construct that have some immediate practical applications.My goal was to see what the ruling planets are doing "behind the scenes." Also, it seems to be where Crowley was going with them. The purely symbolic correspondences are interesting to me as well, I just can't "mainline" them quite as fluidly as I can the astrological ones. They are more for savoring like a fine, old wine

Btw, when I put together all the correspondences, the Queen of Wands took the prize for by far the most potent set of elemental signatures. There is absolutely no ambiguity there. All of the Queens emerged as being paramount because they straddle the four Cardinal axes of the "natural" chart. They strike me as "initiators" far more than the Knights do; the latter seem more like "consorts." The Queen of Cups is the most elementally "pure," with virtually no cross-currents of planetary force; no "ripples" as it were. The Queen of Swords has her femininity (Moon in Libra) "boxed in" by the two cold, dry, earthy planets surrounding her Moon (Mercury and Saturn); looks like a signature for the "Warrior Maiden" (well, perhaps "Matron" ) to me. The Queen of Disks is imperturbable and well-grounded, with Saturn and Mars strong.

I would be happy to send you the charts to post; others like me with a more literal bent may have a use for them.

ETA: Thanks for the tip. I just realized from your post that I should add a column to my table for the "pip" cards that share the same decanates as the Courts. They benifit (or suffer) from the same planetary dignities and debilities, although perhaps at a less abstract level. I could see them as "way-points" in the Court's journey, as you imply (entry/consolidation/exit). Or perhaps as "grist for the mill." Fortunately, I have an empty column.

Barleywine said:

I took it entirely from an astrological perspective because the decanates are an astrological construct that have some immediate practical applications.My goal was to see what the ruling planets are doing "behind the scenes." Also, it seems to be where Crowley was going with them. The purely symbolic correspondences are interesting to me as well, I just can't "mainline" them quite as fluidly as I can the astrological ones. They are more for savoring like a fine, old wine

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S'all good. You were right about me being new to astrology, as in completely new, other than a basic understanding of the symbolic attributions of the Trumps and how that relates to the Minors, mostly based on the Tree of Life. Never having dealt with them in-depth before, and needing a break from a few years of working on the Trumps, I'm hoping the Courts will open doors for me in terms of astrological study. At least basic knowledge of the signs and planets will help kick me in the direction of a book I got long ago but didn't study (I'm ashamed to name it... "Astrology for Dummies"). Mostly, though, my applications are less practical and more abstract.

I feel it is pretty obvious that Crowley did, in fact, consult the Picatrix, although I have no proof of it, only echoes of similarity. Maybe in the future, after going through a few more cards, I'll have a better answer. Up until now, though, I seem to be finding that the Courts are practically fool-proof, as in different attributions reinforce each other. While I'm not one to blindly copy from others, it still gives me some satisfaction that when analyzing the combined signs of a Court, it comes out as something very similar to Crowley's notes on it. My angle is different, as are my conclusions, but the gist is the same.

I will try to work a bit faster, though. I spend about three months on a Trump, I hope to be quicker about the Courts!

Barleywine said:

Btw, when I put together all the correspondences, the Queen of Wands took the prize for by far the most potent set of elemental signatures. There is absolutely no ambiguity there. All of the Queens emerged as being paramount because they straddle the four Cardinal axes of the "natural" chart. They strike me as "initiators" far more than the Knights do; the latter seem more like "consorts." The Queen of Cups is the most elementally "pure," with virtually no cross-currents of planetary force; no "ripples" as it were. The Queen of Swords has her femininity (Moon in Libra) "boxed in" by the two cold, dry, earthy planets surrounding her Moon (Mercury and Saturn); looks like a signature for the "Warrior Maiden" (well, perhaps "Matron" ) to me. The Queen of Disks is imperturbable and well-grounded, with Saturn and Mars strong.

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The Queen of Wands is certainly a kicker, and I'm glad I started with her, she seemed like a natural choice to begin with. Thelemically, she is also a gorgeous representation of Will, especially as relating to Mars in Aries. I can't comment on the other Queens yet, I'm far behind in my studies.