Marseille Learning Tool

I decided that I'm not very good (or patient) about counting up flowers, buds and branches, determining which way they're pointing, and assessing whether or not they look healthy, never mind figuring out what significance these subtleties have for the interpretation of the TdM cards in a reading. So I set out to create a visual learning aid for bringing my Marseille, Thoth and RWS knowledge into line, at least to the point that I'm comfortable trying to read for someone with the TdM.

Although I had noticed it before, I'm still struck by how closely Harris adhered to the TdM card structure, except where Crowley chose to insert inverted pentagrams and Tree of Life arrangements. The RWS takes quite a few fanciful detours, although I did find several cards where it and the Thoth have close similarities.

Using my Hadar TdM, my standard-size Thoth and my Radiant RWS, I created four arrangements that correlate all the pip cards from 2 to 10 across the three decks. I'm posting them here for anyone who's interested to use. Let me know if you see any mistakes, looking at that many cards all at once is a little mind-numbing. If you copy these to your picture library, you should be able to zoom in on them to see the text.

I am always trying to work with and read the TDM as more like cartomancy mixing numerology and hard and soft suits ect... but when I look at your pics it makes me wonder if I shouldn't consider using the Golden Dawn meanings. So many people have said why work with a TDM if your going to just use the same meanings and I'm not saying every card should or would have the same meaning, but a lot of them make sense to me even using my cartomancy brain.

magicjack said:

I am always trying to work with and read the TDM as more like cartomancy mixing numerology and hard and soft suits ect... but when I look at your pics it makes me wonder if I shouldn't consider using the Golden Dawn meanings. So many people have said why work with a TDM if your going to just use the same meanings and I'm not saying every card should or would have the same meaning, but a lot of them make sense to me even using my cartomancy brain.

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I also use number theory, elemental correspondences and color symbolism independent of the more esoteric Golden Dawn stuff, but the apparent Thoth similarities got me thinking, even though Crowley was dismissive of what he called the "hopelessly corrupt" medieval packs.

TdM/Thoth Correspondence

Barleywine, I really enjoyed seeing this. I'm a Thoth person, don't have a TdM deck, but I've always been interested. Seeing the correspondence with Thoth surprised me. Wow! This opens up some new ideas for me.

I switched to TdM to escape Golden Dawn and occult correspondences, so this would be counterproductive for me. Do you read all three exactly the same, then?

Carla said:

I switched to TdM to escape Golden Dawn and occult correspondences, so this would be counterproductive for me. Do you read all three exactly the same, then?

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Absolutely not. The Thoth and the RWS sprang from the same esoteric system, the TdM moves in a different orbit. But it's clear that Crowley saw connections due to the visual similarities in those Thoth pip cards where he didn't insist on sticking in inverted pentagrams and Tree of Life symbolism. The RWS is an outlier in this sense, but I included it for completeness. I wasn't proposing this as a working model for interpretation, just an interesting example of convergence (or divergence, as the case may be). I'm actually getting a lot more mileage out of Joseph Maxwell's number-theory ideas (which were rooted in the TdM) and the graphic symbolism of J.E. Cirlot (especially regarding the "foliage and flowers"), as reflected in another thread. That said, I find the elemental, numerical and astrological correspondences of the GD system of some use in reading the TdM.

Interesting. I've tried to use the TdM to go the other way - to help me learn GD. Thus far it hasn't worked. It helped with Tree of Life, though (weirdly. I think I was just getting distracted by all the images in other decks).

AnemoneRosie said:

Interesting. I've tried to use the TdM to go the other way - to help me learn GD. Thus far it hasn't worked. It helped with Tree of Life, though (weirdly. I think I was just getting distracted by all the images in other decks).

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That distraction is why I find a more useful correlation between the Thoth and the TdM pips. In the RWS minors, the narrative vignettes suggested by the scenes often hijack the interpretation, making the more structural aspects difficult to focus on. As you can probably tell, I'm not a huge fan of that.

I've never been a fan of the RWS, although I do like some of the clones.

Thanks for posting, Barleywine. Interesting how closely some of the Thoth pips resemble the TdM.
AnemoneRosie, I don't like RWS either, although I like and own many clones. I've actually committed an almost blasphemous act, and am today posting off my Centennial Waite-Smith to its new owner!
My TdM collection is expanding, especially since reading Camelia Elias' very practical approach.