Further Thoughts on TdM Pips

Richard

If one compartmentalizes everything, then of course everything external to a deck of cards is unrelated to the cards. In this little music box I keep astrology. This other box with the smoke puffing out of the seams contains alchemy. Over here is the ornate gold-embossed box for Kabbalah. And this colorful little cardboard box is for the Tarot deck. It just makes a big mess to mix up the contents of the different boxes. I think I'll just play with one toy at a time, and put it back in its box before getting out another toy. "No, G.I Joe, you can't play with Barbie. You have to play with yourself."

The magician, however, doesn't compartmentalize. His life is astrological: He is a star. His body is an alchemical furnace. Kabbalah is the structural framework of his universe. If he messes at all with the Tarot box, the contents of that box will enter his world, which is infused with the esoteric. How can the cards avoid being horribly "contaminated" with the esoteric mess?

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Astraea

...The magician, however, doesn't compartmentalize. His life is astrological: He is a star. His body is an alchemical furnace. Kabbalah is the structural framework of his universe. If he messes at all with the Tarot box, the contents of that box will enter his world, which is infused with the esoteric...
What a gorgeous visual - thank you for that.
 

Barleywine

If he messes at all with the Tarot box, the contents of that box will enter his world, which is infused with the esoteric. How can the cards avoid being horribly "contaminated" with the esoteric mess?

What I'm actually trying to do is an exercise in discipline, kind of an experiment (but I haven't started "cutting" myself yet ;)). I want to see if I can make sense of the TdM pips on their own historical terms without falling back on the complex symbolic associations I already know. I've already caved to the extent that numerical and elemental (suit) symbolism are unavoidable, but the astrological and qabalistic stuff I want to hold in abeyance until I see how far I can get without it. Once I get my bearings and a reasonable grasp on the iconography, I'll probably roll everything back together for most practical purposes. I just want to be able to separate them again when I feel it necessary, like having a scalpel instead of a Swiss Army knife.
 

Richard

I thought I had it made with Pips as Trumps. Hey, it seems to make sense, and it is totally intrinsic to the deck. Nothing esoteric about it. But then, how can I turn off my brain, when it knows about The Pattern on the Trestleboard and all that to which it relates? Pips as Trumps then lands the Pips squarely where they belong on that unmentionable diagram of Athanasius Kircher. Aaaarrrggh!
 

Barleywine

I thought I had it made with Pips as Trumps. Hey, it seems to make sense, and it is totally intrinsic to the deck. Nothing esoteric about it. But then, how can I turn off my brain, when it knows about The Pattern on the Trestleboard and all that to which it relates? Pips as Trumps then lands the Pips squarely where they belong on that unmentionable diagram of Athanasius Kircher. Aaaarrrggh!

Still trying to wrap my head around that one. I have the stuff I downloaded from here, what I think I need to do is clear a big space and sort all of the cards in accordance with those correrspondences and just dwell on them for a while. I get better results from visual grouping than from correlating descriptions on paper.
 

Barleywine

I thought I had it made with Pips as Trumps. Hey, it seems to make sense, and it is totally intrinsic to the deck. Nothing esoteric about it. But then, how can I turn off my brain, when it knows about The Pattern on the Trestleboard and all that to which it relates? Pips as Trumps then lands the Pips squarely where they belong on that unmentionable diagram of Athanasius Kircher. Aaaarrrggh!

I've laid out my TdM deck according to the Pips as Trumps scheme and am looking at the internal logic now. My list has the Fool at the beginning and Strength and Justice swapped. I put the last two back in their traditional places but didn't know where the Fool should go to be correct, at the beginning or at the end.

I see that there are two distinct sets - Batons and Cups, and Swords and Coins

In the first set the Batons count down (X - I) from the Fool, and the Cups count up (I - X) from the Juggler. It looks like the Cups start in the second row so the series will end with X at the Wheel of Fortune. Each ascending and descending pair adds up to ten.

The Valet of Batons is at the beginning of the set, next to the X of Batons, its logical location, The Valet of Cups is at the end of the set, next to the X of Cups, again its logical location.

The next line in from both ends is skipped as far as Court cards. I'm not sure why. Next come the King and Queen of Cups in the third and fourth rows from the Fool end, followed by the Knight of Batons in the fifth row. Its not clear why the jump from the Cups royal pair to the Knight of Batons.

From the Wheel of Fortune end, the King and Queen of Batons are in the ninth and eighth rows going backwards, preceded by the Knight of Cups in the seventh row. Similarly, it's not clear why the Batons royal pair is accompanied by the Knight of Cups.

The Swords and Coins follow this same structural pattern.

It looks like the matching of the Trumps to the ascending and descending pairs and triplets is just an accident of the alignment of the Trumps and pips according to the numerical progression of each. Up to the Wheel of Fortune, each Trump has at least one pip of the same numerical value associated with it. Is that the primary pip in each case?

The way I have it laid out, the Juggler, the Pope, the Hermit, the Hanged Man, the Tower and Judgement have no court card associated with them. The Juggler, the Hermit, the Hanged Man and Judgement have Aces instead. The Pope and the Tower, being at the center of their respective sets, only have the two Fives of the associated suits.

If I have to relocate the Fool to the end, the other Trumps will all slide up one notch.

The only thing that's not clear to me, other than the correct placement of the Fool, is why the Court cards are arranged the way they are. Is there a logical code to their placement that I'm not seeing?

Also, am I correct in saying that the pips aligned with each of the Trumps will take on some of the broader meaning of that Trump? Is that how this is supposed to work in making the non-scenic pips more sensible to interpretation? I'm not sure what the Court cards gain from the relationship since they already have useful correspondences.
 

Richard

The bare bones Pips as Trumps method is correlating the Ace through 10 in each suit with Trumps 1 through 10. Each Pip then represents characteristics of the corresponding Trump as they pertain to the suit. There obviously is a great deal of latitude/flexibility with this, which is good. If you try to do more with it than this, it becomes a mess.

Don't worry about whether Trump 8 is Justice or Strength. Play ostrich. Interpret the Courts another way. (There, of course, may be another issue regarding Knights and Kings, but this has been solved for us by the Grimaud and ISIS, in which they are ordered Knight-Queen-King-Knave 'at the factory.' :D)

[IGNORE]Even in esoteric theory, the numbers 1 through 10 play a special role as the circles in the lightening bolt of creation (and the Courts belong at circles 2, 3, 6, and 10). The Fool is not part of this scenario. He is the Nothing out of which it all comes.[/IGNORE]
 

Barleywine

The bare bones Pips as Trumps method is correlating the Ace through 10 in each suit with Trumps 1 through 10. Each Pip then represents characteristics of the corresponding Trump as they pertain to the suit. There obviously is a great deal of latitude/flexibility with this, which is good. If you try to do more with it than this, it becomes a mess.

Don't worry about whether Trump 8 is Justice or Strength. Play ostrich. Interpret the Courts another way. (There, of course, may be another issue regarding Knights and Kings, but this has been solved for us by the Grimaud and ISIS, in which they are ordered Knight-Queen-King-Knave 'at the factory.' :D)

[IGNORE]Even in esoteric theory, the numbers 1 through 10 play a special role as the circles in the lightening bolt of creation (and the Courts belong at circles 2, 3, 6, and 10). The Fool is not part of this scenario. He is the Nothing out of which it all comes.[/IGNORE]

I seem to have two different "method sheets" for Pips as Trumps: one is pictorial but the images are so small I can't tell what's what, even though I annotated it previously. The second one, which I described above, is a text document. For what it's worth, here are pictures of the layout (I could only attach 5 of the 6 photos, but can post the last one separately if anyone wants to see it). I think it might have some usefulness as a study tool.
 

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kwaw

In the first set the Batons count down (X - I) from the Fool, and the Cups count up (I - X) from the Juggler. It looks like the Cups start in the second row so the series will end with X at the Wheel of Fortune. Each ascending and descending pair adds up to ten.


Sounds similar to method I developed, except I apply it only to the pips 1-10, not the court cards:

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