Doreen Virtue Decks changes and such

willowy

How do you mean ? Many of us are wondering if the one scheduled for release in October will make it, but the rest are still for sale all over the place - including the Hay House site. From what I hear, the only thing she asked people to burn was her Ascended Masters book.

I was going by someone saying hayhouse was selling her decks on sale.I never heard about her asking people to burn her book!
Maybe this is is just internet hearsay anyway....
 

EmpyreanKnight

You guys all know how much I respect your opinions. And well, I don't have a skin in this game too, since I could sail by life without thinking of Virtue's decks so one way or another, people's opinions about it don't bother me.

But what I think about Virtue's Tarot decks is that for some, it is a very useful tool that in most cases is what they need at that particular point in their path. It is what they required at that moment, so it does not mean they have to continue patronizing it once its usefulness has been exhausted.

I guess I can liken it to how some people require training wheels when they first learn how to bike. Some people can take to cycling like fish to water, and if after a few mishaps they find their footing and can use their bike like a pro then good for them! I guess these would be the sort of readers who can handle the hard cold Truths that the traditional Tarot decks can throw at them without flinching. They can commence their Tarot studies using the RWS or even the stark Thoth as their starter deck, and even if they sometimes use imaginative ways to cope with inauspicious readings (like for example, pulling more clarificatory cards to somehow counter the "bad" ones they drew in their spread), they mostly take these in stride.

Then there are people who would only get battered, discouraged, hurt, and maybe traumatized if they chose to ride a bike head on. They are the unathletic, ungainly kids who no matter how you try to guide them (and amidst your slowly mounting frustration) would always find ways to fall on their butts, knees, arms, etc. Seeing no progress they would begin to lose their confidence, and after lots of struggles with hardly any headway, they might even begin to hate the bike itself. In time, many of them would just quit altogether, defeated, when all they really needed was the efficacious use of training wheels which they would slowly lift until they reach the goal they're after.

And this would be what would happen if you get a sensitive, broken spirit who has somehow been guided to the Tarot as a means of helping them with their pain, but who has been thrown into the deep end of the Tarot pool when all they really needed at the moment is the warm, comforting waters at the shallow end. We have all had phases in our lives when we were utterly, absolutely down, when we were at the end of our rope, when we were at our nadir. Sometimes, all we need is a little comfort, some kindness, some hope to pull us through. The very last thing we need is a stern taskmaster who will tell us all our faults and how effed up our present is and so and so. I mean, some probably respond to that but in my experience most don't.

I guess I'm lucky that I met the Tarot at the right time in my life, when I can take most of what it shows me and react to them productively. Because I've had some dark, ugly phases in my life that I faced alone, since after all, the golden boy must always perform for people and he must always be wholesome and shiny and he just has so many things in his plate so he must never be allowed to show his weaknesses because it would be such a faux pas. I mean, imagine the shame on his family's name. The very best Tarot can guide you to the right paths, and they can look nice and all but above all they must never shy away from the truth. With all the fakery and the odious brawls for status and all the hypocritically false "social acquaintances" I must keep up with during that time, if I tried to find solace in the traditional Tarot and I was presented a harsh mirror to the lie I've been living, I would have been on the defensive and eventually noped it out of my life. A proud, desperate person doesn't like being told outright that his life stinks. Which would have been a shame since I would never have been exposed to all the lessons that the Tarot has shown me. And I'd be loathe to admit it, but I think that at that time in my life, a Virtue Tarot might just have been the right deck to start me on my path to healing.

That's why I think that the Virtue decks can also be very useful, and it might not be gainful to simply dismiss them. Other people deal with loss, with extreme heartbreak, with the impending collapse of their dreams and at that time, what they need is a comforting friend. If through them a person can somehow find the strength of mind and the willpower to once again give it his best shot and to find his mojo once again then he should use them.

Does that mean that I disapprove of all the criticisms against the Virtue decks? Definitely not! Because most of them are valid and factual after all, and one should not shy away from that. But what I really dislike about the Virtue narrative is their schtick that their Tarot is the true path, the enlightened one, and that traditional Tarot is not necessary. Maybe it is like that for the pampered beings languishing in la dolce vita who would never break a sweat or suffer at all in their idyllic lives. But for the vast majority, the Virtue decks are something they should one day outgrow. Because if all something preaches is light and warmth and kindness etc, at one point people who have the capacity to think for themselves would eventually find it inadequate. Also, if someone wants to explore the Tarot and his life is just average with nothing world-shattering going on (as I think most Tarot beginners are), then he must be heavily discouraged from beginning with the Virtue decks no matter how sweet their promises are, and must be led to the more traditional Tarot decks. Because of this, the reasonable criticisms leveled against the Virtue decks are very much important.

Regarding some of the disparaging remarks the DV brand has against traditional Tarot, it is like a vast training wheel production empire telling people to just stick to using their products because they're safer and more convenient and they're used to it so why fix something when it ain't broke? If we allow that to be broadcast without opposition then people's growth would just be stalled and their potential won't be realized. So yes, it's important to put the word out that the Virtue decks are not the be-all and end-all of Tarot, and that if they have the necessary strength, character and hardiness to tackle the traditional Tarot, then for their own sake they must think of switching quick.

So yup, for me the Virtue Tarot decks, as has been endorsed in many heartfelt reviews and testimonials, can prove to be very useful for certain people. I don't think it must be phased out. But if one truly wishes to discover the whole gamut of spiritual riches that the Tarot can offer to anyone brave and perspicacious enough to explore it to its very limits, then it's just fair that people are made aware of the limitations of the Virtue decks, and that their scurrilous statements against the traditional Tarot be refuted.
 

Alta

What a great description of the niche market for DV tarot decks EmpyreanKnight. While it is true that 'life brings pain', for people deeply into grief or other life stress, blunt messages can topple their already weak foothold. I went through a period of huge upheaval in the late nineties and early 00's during which my life turned inside out. In the end it was for the better but while it was going on it was one searing moment after another. I used her decks exclusively because at that point blunt messages were the last thing that would be helpful. I never look at them now nor have more more than a decade.

DV knows her followers. People who love these decks are often dealing with huge events, or even long term negativity and she caters to them. Yes about the marketing and likely hypocrisy, but still, like EmpyreanKnight, I can see the point.
 

gregory

I actually agree - up to a point. I just wish she would stick to oracle decks. She does those well, even though they are not my thing. I ABSOLUTELY support her oracle decks. And I know people who have clung to her oracles as a liferaft - and found they kept them afloat. More power to her for creating those decks, for helping those people through awful times. People in distress don't have to turn to Tarot in particular. But if they do, IMNVHO they should be turning to Tarot, not an oracle with 78 cards masquerading as tarot.

The bad things that can happen if someone who cannot cope with tarot
has somehow been guided to the Tarot as a means of helping them with their pain, but who has been thrown into the deep end of the Tarot pool when all they really needed at the moment is the warm, comforting waters at the shallow end. We have all had phases in our lives when we were utterly, absolutely down, when we were at the end of our rope, when we were at our nadir. Sometimes, all we need is a little comfort, some kindness, some hope to pull us through. The very last thing we need is a stern taskmaster who will tell us all our faults and how effed up our present is and so and so.
are the fault of whatever idiot led them up the wrong path at that time in their lives.
 

MizGrace

I quite like Doreen Virtue's cards as the card stock is really heavy the gilded edges have got my eyes staring at the cards lovingly. I do feel drawn to the positivity and how pretty they look on a bookshelf or anywhere in general. I believe for me its down to a rebirth as I was told in a reading and I suddenly thought Ah Ha! that is what is happening in my life out with the old in with the new.
I am finding myself less and less drawn to images in oracles and tarot decks that have a somewhat sinister feel to them. I was quite intrigued by gimmicky decks and googling Gothic Vampires and realised it was a phase in my life of fascination due to films and not for any gorey reason just a fan of the artwork. This still fascinates me yet I suddenly look at them now and feel a bit cold and uneasy as I am looking at them in a different light now.
I feel in time those cards will exit my life.
The majority of my cards came from a friend who use to buy them in auction and suddenly handed them over to me I got lucky before I moved home and was gifted them and I didnt have a reason for having them other than for arts sake as I enjoy sketching, then I thought hang on a minute there really is something more in the symbols so I got to sticking my head into libraries and museums who kindly allowed me to access the university library in the museum to review some symbols breath taking and my mind was transported into a world where something deeper was happening.

I was stuck, I had known gifts in the family felt things yet picked up tarot once put it down due to meanings and the taboo factor 'tarot is of the devil put it down, its not christian!' perhaps look at something more positive? too right that stuck in my head scared me to death still sits in the back of my mind now. as, if to say you step away from those tarot cards with darker death and devil images.

I came across other cards from family who passed away sadly my collection has mostly now come from sad circumstances, are the cards nice yes but Id sooner have family than items. There is little of my family left and what is left is the colder part that isolates the kind like us here who enjoy looking at tarot even for fun its taboo and they will not speak to me at all. My mother when alive nudged my family to buy me a doreen virtue oracle deck and I did try to do a reading with both tarot and doreen cards for my neice. The reading came out accurate as her boyfriend wasnt nice and I had to tread really carefully as not to hurt her, a first boyfriend is hard to break free from I met him and boy, he may have been the cute gothic emo type and my neice became emo too yet, it was intense and downright dangerous! think most people been there with first loves!. she had asked me to read and I did it infront of sister and mum but took her to one said and very carefully explained I needed to shut the reading down and speak to her privately.The cards tackled the whole issue in a way that was gentle and gave her time to think I didnt say to her hey leave him run for the hills. yet the Messages from your angels deck said to her, you need some you time pamper yourself and to accept she wasnt accepting things for her highest good.



That is one thing I like about the cards is I didnt have to scare her by throwing the devil in chains at her, the devil in chains came up and death card instantly and tower. I was ok this isnt good throw the cards behind me. how do I read this I dont know tarot yet, these cards look really angry so I smiled said sorry forgot to shuffle properly, no same again.
so I put the cards away fast as I just stated they wont read properly right now.

however do you go about that tactfully when in your heart you know danger is ahead, do you tell them or ignore it? I realise now it was something I mustn't do in a reading but I had no idea what I was doing and pushed to read. I had said no I dont think its wise and a gut feeling was saying that boyfriends no good if I reason this wont come up sunshine and roses! I dont read for them anymore probably because it all was the truth from the cards.

I have learnt my lesson with tarot and now making sure I look at tarot in a different light.

so for me the doreen cards were the only way I could answer it.
 

Elven

No-one knows if she is withdrawing her decks. If she is it would be hard on Radleigh Valentine, who did the art work., and because of that, actually, I'm not sure she could withdraw them. If someone has one to hand to check who holds the copyright. She is still doing her daily and weekly You tube videos.

There WAS a video she put up about this, but it was pulled. There are articles saying something about it all, and there is at least one video by someone else talking about the "personal; relationship" she now has with Jesus/ But as far as I know she was always Christian - hence all the angel decks. She has just shifted her position somewhat.

This is the best I can find.

https://newagestudies.org/tag/youtube/

Scroll down a bit and there's quite a lengthy piece about it.

Here's some more : http://angelorum.co/topics/spirituality/doreen-virtues-christian-parasite-cleanse/ (The author has created a tarot deck I rather like... http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/frideborg-tarot/)

- and in this thread there are a couple of people who saw the video before it was poulled.

Thanks for those links Gregory
So strike that last post I wrote about her stopping printing her decks - my misunderstanding.


what’s in and what’s out?
Doreen says she will still sell stuff about angels (and, of course, Jesus). She will also sell books/cards about unicorns. And about fairies (she specifically mentioned flower fairies and tree fairies but said she will not promote “dark fairies”).

Who’s in?
ANGELS, FAIRIES, UNICORNS

Who’s out?
ASCENDED MASTERS

She mentioned her book again, Angels and Ascended Masters, and said she’ll be re-writing it and taking lots of deities out. She didn’t specifically say which ones…



So it relates to her move back to Christianity, her Baptism and Repentance, and her relationship with Jesus.

Repentance is a weird word, I’ll give you that. But it comes from a rather silly interpretation of the Greek New Testament word metanoia, which basically just means ‘change of mind.’
http://angelorum.co/topics/spirituality/doreen-virtues-christian-parasite-cleanse/

I did take note of something which I have seen mentioned more than once by the writer of the articles - that was about the re-adjustment of her personal Faith, and her co-alignment of her business.
It was also questioned what that type of manoeuvre that places her type of business in, in the Christian Business empire. What's the Christian Arts worth? Music, Flocks, Television ratings, Angels and Candles, Statues and being closer to God. Jesus is also a brand - one of the biggest and longest lived.

DV when immersed in this business realm comes in with a reputation and is pretty well exclusive & packaged already. This small 'adjustment of Faith and Merchandise' exposes her to a massive market.
Someone mentioned 'Evangelist'.

It is a consideration as to why she is reissuing - one I really don't have a big opinion on at the moment. Its a bit early.
but...


I was thinking of buying DV's Tarot but couldn't decide - heck, "What would Jesus Do'?
;)
 

Thoughtful

EmpryeanKnight l did enjoy your eloquent and detailed post, and agree that some folk starting out need to perhaps have a gentle deck, rather than the in your face Thoth :joke:

There is of course room for all kinds of tarot, l do understand where and with whom she is aiming her decks, but it is too insipid for those who went to other "real" tarot first. We are all very different and our tarot journey's are at different stages. DV tarot decks are not my thing, but l do agree with Gregory about the Oracle decks, l have two, and they have been very helpful, thoughtful and calming.

l thought this thread began with more a discussion about her decks versus her Christianity. Not that we will ever possibly know her decision on that. Or if indeed why if giving up on her decks has anything to do with it at all.

Edit: Is she giving up deck production or does she feels it works with her Christianity, little confused here.
 

gregory

l thought this thread began with more a discussion about her decks versus her Christianity. Not that we will ever possibly know her decision on that. Or if indeed why if giving up on her decks has anything to do with it at all.
It did start out that way - but as she took down the video, we can only speculate. But I reiterate - she was always Christian. She has just changed the - slant, if you like - of her faith. Which is perfectly legit. What effect it will have on her existing tarot decks and the rest will take time to be evident. As far as I can gather the huge issue was her Ascended Masters stuff; that was the book she wanted people to get rid of. Something to do with all gods being equal and she realised that they aren't ?

AFAIK there is nothing in the bible against divination as such, only against a few false seers, and it is more than once mentioned positively. I don't know what Jesus would do, Elven, but I bet if he wanted a deck, and had the money, he'd likely buy it. Why not ?

I cannot imagine why I didn't think of this before but - I am going to email Hay House. "concerned customer had preordered DV's Animal Tarot and now hears rumours, so I checked your site and ..." :D I'll be back if they answer.
 

Thoughtful

l had not realised she was already Christian. Thanks for your explanations Gregory. Will wait and see how your email goes, should be interesting, did not think to do that.

Perhaps Jesus would not have needed Tarot, l always thought he was endowed with spiritual gifts, such as healing empathy and the like.
 

gregory

They have answered almost by return :) - but in a long email including a newsletter which I will convert to a form where you can read it later and view - they say - the video.

But the only video I can see in there has nothing to do with this - it's a Jesus meditation. Very decorative, but...

ETA and further, when I asked:

Hi again,

I am very sorry if that was not the information you were seeking. That is the video/newsletter in our resources given to distribute when there are concerns about her recent change . Any additional inquiries can be sent to her personal social media page: https://www.facebook.com/DoreenVirtue444/