Significance of the year 1471? (Jodo-Camoin TdM deck) / Earliest cards

Re: 1337 Abbaye of St Victor of Marseilles : paginae

Okay, so, a few translations for non-French-speakers. (hoping we have some).

Namadev is quoting Tarot de Marseille History page which cites the mention (discovered by Du Cagne) in the Charters of the Abbey Saint Victor in Marseilles:

« Quod nulla persona audeat nec praesumat ludere ad taxillos nec ad paginas nec ad eyssychum »

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I translate the French translation of the Latin (ROFL) "Let no one dare or undertake to play with dice, with 'pages', or with chess."

Namadev's quote continues, giving another quote from the Latin charters of the Abbey which explains that "pages" means a game of cards.

: Folia lusoria ni fa lor « Ludos ad paginas nostris ».

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Which I think translates to something like: sheets of paper [folia] for playing [lusoria] serve them as "our game of pages" -- which makes it very clear that the "game of pages" is a deck of cards.

Translation in progress for the quote from Camoin's Origin and History page...

Re: 1337 Abbaye of St Victor of Marseilles : paginae

Translation of the quote from Camoin's History Page: Abbey Saint Victor

• In the fourteenth century, in Marseilles, in the Abbey Saint-Victor, monks were prohibited from playing cards within the abby walls, because of the frenetic enthusiasm of the monks and the nobles for the game. In 1337, there is also a mention in the charters of the Abbey St Victor, of the prohibition against playing "paginae" (in latin - parchment, page, paper). This word could also apply to a deck of cards, because in 1408, the words "paper for playing" and "cards" are used in the same sentence to designate the same game. This can be explained by the fact that the word "Naip" which in Spanish was used to designate cards, could come from the Flemmish word "knaep" which means paper. In fact, during this period, there was lots of commerce between the Spanish and the Flemmish. The early word for playing cards [naip] could easily have been "paper for playing", abbreviated sometimes as "paper". This is the hypothesis of the famous specialist in playing cards, Henri-René D'Allemagne"

Diana says this stuff is also in English on Camoin's site, but I couldn't find any English for the magasine pages....

Thank you very much, firemaiden, for the translations.

-- Lee

A reference, albeit not the earliest (which most of you probably know of already)

I ran into this reference yesterday.

"Une chronique de Giovanni de Juzzo de Caveluzo, conservée aux de Virterbe, fixe l'époque où les cartes apparurent en Europe, dans le passage suivant:

"" En l'an 1379 fut introduit à Virterbe le jeu de cartes qui vint de pays des Sarrazins et qui s'appelle chez eux Naîb."

Source: D'Eugène Caslant's introductory _Exposé_ to Paul Marteau's book _Tarot de Marseille_. (page XIV)

Hi,
Two years before in 1377, the 3tractatus di moribus et disciplina humane conversacionis" mentionnes :

"Dans l'année du Seigneur 1377 est arrivé jusqu'à nous un certain jeu de cartes.
dans ce jeu, l'état du monde, les temps actuels et modernes, est décrit de façon parfaite.
Mais où, à quelle époque et par qui a-t-il été composé?
Je l'ignore complètement"
(Origines et histoire du tarot, Editions Envolée, 1997, p.36)

For 1379, you have the "Inventaire du Duc d'Orléans (1408).
Morever :
"En l'an 1379 arriva à Viterbe le jeu de cartes venu de Sarracina qu'ils appelent entre eux *naïb"
(Jean de Coveluzzo, 1480?)

Alain

Would it be possible for those providing quotations in French to also provide English translations? I believe the Forum guidelines encourage doing so.

Thank you!

-- Lee

I think "ni falior" in the quote from Du Cange -

"Paginae. Folia lusoria, ni falior. "Ludus ad Paginas", our "Jeu de cartes" (game of cards or deck of cards). Statutes of the year 1337, ex. Tabular St. Victor,Marseille."

...should be corrected to "ni fallor" a form of "nisi fallor", which means "if I am not mistaken"; so he is not *quite* as categorical as it seems -

"Pages/papers. Gaming sheets, if I am not mistaken. "Ludus ad Paginas (playing with papers)", our "game/deck of cards" (no distinction in French)."

I would hazard that these "paginas" are not quite the same as "naib", since every entry about the latter makes a big deal about them. I think the paginas would be card-sized, and perhaps played like cards, but might not have the same suits as we get from naib, or maybe no suits at all, just numbers or words.

So yes, it is an early reference to cards; but not, in my opinion, to the cards we are familiar with. Or, if they are, then Marseille did not know about "naib" cards yet.

If they were popular, then the chronicler should have known the correct name. Thus, "ludus ad paginas" was the correct term. If the people who wrote the various entries starting around 1367 about "naip" knew "paginas" as well, why call them by the new name if they were not very different things? Therefore I suspect they were.

Besides "paginas", we have entries on little papers called "schedulae" or "cedulae" in the 13th and 14th centuries. And there is a picture of someone doing divination with small papers with marks on them in some manuscripts of the Decretals.

Finally, on the other hand, there is supposedly as reference to "naips" from Barcelona in 1310 (yes 1310) that I have not been able to check. It is cited in "La carte à jouer en Languedoc dès origines à 1800" (Toulouse, 1971), with the reference being

J. Amades and J. Colomines, "Els Soldats i altres Papers de Rengles" (Barcelona, 1936) vol. II p. 7.

In my opinion, we have to suspect that there were games and divination involving shuffling and drawing of papers well before the Sarracen "naib" hit the scene.

Ross

Lee said:

Would it be possible for those providing quotations in French to also provide English translations? I believe the Forum guidelines encourage doing so.

Thank you!

-- Lee

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I try to translate the French quotations -- time, energy and enthusiasm permitting. However, if we are obliged in all cases to provide translations, I probably won't usually bother posting those quotations at all.

Lee said:

Would it be possible for those providing quotations in French to also provide English translations? I believe the Forum guidelines encourage doing so.

Thank you!

-- Lee

Click to expand...

I have to agree with Lee that those of us who do speak and write English should provide English translations with our foreign language quotes. The forum will become incomprehensible otherwise to the majority of the membership and the moderators and firemaiden cannot be expected to translate everything.

HOWEVER: This must NOT stop our French speaking members from posting. Their posts will be translated as they go along (with sometimes a slight delay if a French speaking person is not on the boards at the time.) This is a notice only for our English speaking members.

Namadev said:

Hi,
Two years before in 1377, the 3tractatus di moribus et disciplina humane conversacionis" mentionnes :

"Dans l'année du Seigneur 1377 est arrivé jusqu'à nous un certain jeu de cartes.
dans ce jeu, l'état du monde, les temps actuels et modernes, est décrit de façon parfaite.
Mais où, à quelle époque et par qui a-t-il été composé?
Je l'ignore complètement"
(Origines et histoire du tarot, Editions Envolée, 1997, p.36)

For 1379, you have the "Inventaire du Duc d'Orléans (1408).
Morever :
"En l'an 1379 arriva à Viterbe le jeu de cartes venu de Sarracina qu'ils appelent entre eux *naïb"
(Jean de Coveluzzo, 1480?)

Alain

Click to expand...

Tractatus -

"In the year of the Lord 1377 there came to us a certain deck of cards; in this game, the state of the world, current and modern times, is described perfectly.
But where, in what epoch and by whom was it designed?
I do not know at all."

Jean de Coveluzzo)
"In the year 1379 arrived at Viterbo the deck of cards come from Sarracina (the land of the Saracens), which is called among them 'naïb'".

Ross