House Systems

Astraea

Simms, Munkasey books

Lee -- the book you are referring to, Dial Detective, is by Maria Kay Simms. It's a great introduction to finding midpoints with a dial, but Simms is a Uranian astrologer, meaning she uses the hypothetical planets postulated by that school -- so, even though the math and wheels are presented in an easy-to-understand fashion, beginners might become confused.

Ebertin's Combination of Stellar Influences remains the classic in the field of midpoints, but Michael Munkasey has written an updated work which frames Ebertin's understandings in a more modern way; the name of the book is Midpoints.
 

Minderwiz

D**n, another one out of stock :(

I tried to get the Munkasey book but Amazon UK say they can't get it and Amazon US only have a CD Rom version offered ABOVE list price (and one only of those).

Anyway its on the (increasingly long) list of books I'm going to buy.

I think the powers that be are conspiring to stop me buying books at the moment. Ah well back to the catalogue.........
 

littleneptune

sorry dadsnook2000--(darn this mercury retrograde!) when I say 17' I mean degrees, not seconds. I can't find a degrees sign on this keyboard!
 

dadsnook2000

Interpretations for littleneptune

We are taking about mid-points and about "containments." Your Moon in Gemini is square the groupings Saturn-Venus-Sun and Uranus-Pluto-Mars. In terms of mid-point structures, you have Moon = Sun/Mars (wide orb) and Sun/Pluto (tighter orb). The other planets are close but not significant in terms of standard mid-point practice.
***
SUN/PLUTO strives for power; with MOON it surpresses feelings and tends to over-react. SUN/MARS expresses itself with vitality, and purpose; with MOON it is attracted to men-women situations and participation in that polarity. In these cases MOON has to express the SUN/PLUTO and SUN/MARS energies in a MOON-like manner. Where the two SUN combinations can express as leadership, agressive behavior, intense plans on a large scale, etc., the MOON cannot easily adjust to this. As a politician, the MOON would lead based on polls and the advice of others. As a actor, the MOON would portray agressive roles. In any subordinate role, the MOON would identify with and carry out the actual or perceived orders and wishes of the boss.
***
In your chart, Moon is in a "containment" pattern of JUPITER-MOON-URANUS. MOON will take from, and build upon, the JUPITER energy and direct it thru or toward an URANUS expression -- all in a MOON-manner. This translates into: These individual impressions are expansive and varied. Rather than be overwhelmed by emotions, they need to attain comple freedom from them. By manifesting enthusiasm in a forthright manner they can accomplish this. They year for a rich liveliness, within and around themselves. They will find it where they function as completely liberated uninhibited sprits. In this lifetime they desire social conact yet need freedom from social restrictions. (This is "book.")
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We can briefly look at several other pairings.
SATURN-VENUS-SUN: Values well gronded. Possible limiting of vision and slowness to make decisions about goals. Balanced, knows self-worth. Cautious in love and relationships.
URANUS-PLUTO-MARS: Individualistic. Compulsive. How to guide this energy away from self destruction. Independent initiatives lead to accomplishments.
VENUS-SUN-MERCURY: This common pattern (thank heaven) communicates love. Constantly. Hopefully love is directed and purposful -- not wasted where it can't grow. Avoid vacilation.
***
Using these "containment" interpretations, we'd have to shade their meanings from the mid-planet taking from the first and expressing it through the latter, to the first and last planet expressing itself through the middle or second planet. THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE. Why is it important to understand this? Mid-points express a basic combination through the mid-point planet whether it is capable or not. Containments do not require us to do calculations but to just take the first planet's energies and modify them by the second planet's qualities to express themselves through the third planet. It is easier, doesn't require calculations, and can be used in sun-sign charts without a time of birth. NOW, look again at your chart. Your moon is reasonably square two groupings of planets, both groupings being basically opposite each other. In mid-point structures, only the Sun, Mars, and Pluto have a mid-point occupied by the Moon (given the tight orbs used for mid-points). Do you express the bigger t-square? Do the containment pictures I noted "ring true" for you. Note that we haven't considered the ASC and MC angles in any of this. Let me know what you think about all or any of this. Dave.
 

littleneptune

dadsnook2000--thank you so much for your analysis of my chart pattern.
Your comments about midpoint Moon=Sun/Pluto and Sun/Mars make a great deal of sense to me. I am very interested as an artist and activist in issues of gender equality, domestic violence, gay rights etc. This is a perfect expression of these powerful, aggressive energies and how they don't 'work' with softer Moon qualities! Would trines or sextiles to Sun, Pluto or Mars help this rather dire aspect pattern? (I have Neptune at 19.9 degrees Scorpio and Jupiter at 21.5 degrees Taurus). Perhaps this is too wide an orb? Also, you asked about the ASC axis. My ASC is 3 degrees Taurus, which I believe lies at the midpoint of Sun and Moon...is this significant?

You spoke about Jupiter-Moon-Uranus and Venus-Sun-Mercury containment patterns which confuses me as I didn't give you those planetary positions in my original post. My mercury is "unaspected" at 3 degrees Aries.

The other "containment patterns" Saturn/Venus/Sun and Uranus/Pluto/Mars struck me a somewhat accurate, although not as specifically accurate as the midpoints. I will definitely take some time to blend the energies (of middle planet as taking from the first and expressing through the last etc.) to see if this rings true.

In summary, I have always tried to interpret the T-square mentioned in light of the houses they fell in, and I never really got a satisfactory understanding. Your mid-point analysis seems accurate and well worth pursuing. Perhaps if others are interested, we could start a thread on midpoints (if you're up to it dadsnook!)?
 

dadsnook2000

Mid-points & Containments

For littleneptune and any others interested . . .
We could do a listing for mid-points & containments both. Some use the book translations interchangably although that isn't exactly appropriate. I learned mid-points almost before I learned about houses and signs, so I've always done "simple" astrology. Most of my work in astrology (since I'm shifting strongly to tarot) is in the use of Solar Returns (precessed) and prediction. But in the interest of sharing my expereiences with both mid-points (extensive) and containments (modest, growing use) I would be glad to get a thread going. I'm not sure if those of us who are "new" to this listing are encouraged to start threads, but I'll check into it. The only way to determine interest may be to just start a thread going with a statement of interest and see shows up. Dave.
 

Minderwiz

Dave,

By all means feel free to start a thread - as often as you wish, this is your forum as much as anyone elses and you have lots to offer
 

littleneptune

Dave--please don't feel pressured to continue in astrology if you need to focus on tarot! I just thought that IF others are interested in asking questions about mid-points, you would definitely be a source of great expertise...I will leave it to others to ask questions, as I have taken up much of your time :)
 

dadsnook2000

For littleneptune and other interested.
You asked several questions. I'll answer some following this quote:
littleneptune said:
dadsnook2000--thank you so much for your analysis of my chart pattern.
Your comments about midpoint Moon=Sun/Pluto and Sun/Mars make a great deal of sense to me. I am very interested as an artist and activist in issues of gender equality, domestic violence, gay rights etc. This is a perfect expression of these powerful, aggressive energies and how they don't 'work' with softer Moon qualities! Would trines or sextiles to Sun, Pluto or Mars help this rather dire aspect pattern? (I have Neptune at 19.9 degrees Scorpio and Jupiter at 21.5 degrees Taurus). Perhaps this is too wide an orb? Also, you asked about the ASC axis. My ASC is 3 degrees Taurus, which I believe lies at the midpoint of Sun and Moon...is this significant?

First, Sun/Moon = ASC. This pattern fits with your previous comments as you (Asc.) express both the male-female concerns and roles in society (Sun and Moon), ones sense of individuality versus ones reactive role with others, leadership and support roles. Some would view this as an integrated personality, others might see a dynamic balance where several individual roles favoring one or the other contribute to an overall balance, while some might find a push-pull aspect to this mid-point pattern. Secondly, the Neptune-Jupiter trine is supportive in that it can bring satisfaction to neptune-related situations -- but it can also result in an "overfeeding" and later unsatisfaction if expectations become unproductive. Jupiter and Neptune suggest that larger groups of people are involved in your life. Trines and sextiles don't "work" within mid-points as commonly practiced. This brings us to a third point. Mid-points, IMHO, should not be totally relied upon for chart deliniation. The Sun-Moon-ASC-MC parameters should always be kept in mind as a significant backdrop for the mid-point structures to work within. Just as your large T-sqaure pattern can't be ignored when assessing your chart, the mid-point structure does not bring all of those planets/groups together. They can provide a focus but not an exclusive picture. Dave. PS: I am still thinking about initiating a mid-point and containment thread. I have a Boy Scout web-site to finish and an exhibit to finish planning for the local Historical Society on carousel horses (a hobby of mine; a circle of beasts -- carousels and the zodiac have much in common).
 

C.N.

Going back to the original subject, I prefer Alcabitus or Porphyry house systems. These two systems produce results that are quite close to each others. I haven't ruled out Placidus yet. Koch is out of the question for me, I was born at quite a high latitude so my chart doesn't work at all with the Koch system.