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Midpoints, Planets in Containment

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Two replies


Replies to littleneptune and to lunalafey.
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LITTLENEPTUNE: You should have a full, circular chart representing a total of 90 degrees. The first thirty degrees will be representative of all cardinal signs, the second thirty degrees will represent all fixed signs, the last thirty degrees all mutable signs. Your Venus in Pisces and your Uranus in Virgo will be at 71 and 72 degrees on your "90" degree wheel -- looking like a conjunction. Your Sun will be at 79.6 degrees. Mid-way between your Venus and your Sun will be Pluto at 75 degrees. This translates into Sun/Venus = Pluto. Ebertin says of this mid-point, "Strong excitability in love-life can easily lead to excesses. A fateful love union (when activated by a transit, probably). The Sun represents life, purpose, one's self image. Venus represents one value for relationships, harmony and balance. Pluto can be said to be intensity, a push for control, feeling the impact of change, being drawn into transformative experiences. This might be more accurately understood or applied if you took into account other significant patterns. For example, your Sun and Moon forms an opening square -- the "activist" phase -- suggesting a basic urge to act, plunging into things, involved in self and social forcefullness as a mode of expression. Sun in Pisces suggests high sensitivity levels while Moon in Gemini suggests a need for wide-spread and frequent social contact. You will also want to look at your Ascendant for another clue as to how you might deal with a rich but sensitive social life -- do you generally stay a little remote and get burnt when you rush into closeness? There is a lot to explore in just these basic patterns.
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LUNALAFEY: Your list looks like it could be correct. If so, your Mars will be at the mid-point of Moon/Pluto. Ebertin says, "Great changes of mood, easy excitability, the inclination to outbursts of anger. Quarrels, injuries (when activated by transits)" Sun and Mars will be close to opposite each other on a 90 degree chart. This means that they are close to a 45 or 135 degree aspect in your regular natal chart. Depending upon how you rounded off the positions given in your listing, one or both of them will be at the mid-point of Mercury and Saturn. Mercury/Saturn brings a certain structure and depth to your thoughts, methodical processes in categorizing things. Sun at that mid-point, if actually there, would suggest frequent changes of address, separations, etc. (Ebertin), while Mars would, if there, tend to incompatibility and unrest with others who are close, disputes over principles. Again, these observations might or might not be accurate depending upon the accurate positions of the planets. Ebertin used only 1 and 1/2 degrees orb.
*** If either of you wish to privately e-mail me your charts I will mark up a 90 degree chart and send you back a .jpg file of that chart. If you have a computer generated mid-point listing that may not be necessary but I will do that just to start you off with the added confidence on your pursuit of this exciting topic. Dave.
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Mars the mid-point of Moon/Pluto. "Great changes of mood, easy excitability, the inclination to outbursts of anger. Quarrels, injuries (when activated by transits)"

hmm first two sounds valid. And the last two, that did did not last long. I don't anger easy.

Mars Mercury/Saturn brings a certain structure and depth to your thoughts, methodical processes in categorizing things.

OH YES!

Sun at that mid-point suggest frequent changes of address, separations, while Mars would tend to incompatibility and unrest with others who are close, disputes over principles.
I'm forever moving, have even been homeless a few times(not due to lack of responsibility on my part). The unrest and disputes...all that you mention, went along with the quarrels and injuries from above...& that was right at the start of my Saturn return.
I no longer endure such lifestyle.

Now I made a full circle as described to littleneptune, I believe I found Uranus to be the mid point between Saturn & Pluto, & Venus is the mid point of Jupiter & Mars. I'm off to ponder.....
THX DAD!
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How to easily spot mid-points


When not working with a computer gernerated listing, you can find mid-points on a printed 90 degree chart by using a smaller 90 degree chart wheel that can be rotated within the outer or larger chart diagram. There are/were stores that sold these before software became so common. The circle chart was modified so that the numbers ran from 0 to 45 going both ways from the zero point. You would then place the zero at the planet or point to be examined and then look to see what other points had the same numerical placement on either side of the zero. This was a simple mechanical tool. You could make one if you felt it might be useful. I still you one when doing deep analysis on a chart -- especially when doing solar arc progressions (something we can't explore for awhile yet).
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I'm glad these early forays into mid-points are proving to be useful for everyone. After some practice you can look at a mid-point listing (say, a planet with four sets of mid-point pairings) and just understand and synthesize them as you look at them. Like most things in astrology or in tarot, you just have to trust in their workings. Dave.
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dadsnook--how close should the orb be, 1 degree? Also, you described Ebertin's take on Sun/Venus=Pluto, I believe. Could one use the 'containment' book to describe midpoint patterns too, and if so could you describe the above pattern so I could see the different authors' takes on the same Sun/Venus=Pluto for comparison. I'm still undecided about which of the books to buy. Thanks.
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Sun-Pluto-Venus & Venus-Pluto-Sun


Reply to littleneptune
Your chart does not have a Sun-Pluto-Venus containment. You can use the containment book as long as you understand that there are TWO combinations to synthesize: Sun-Pluto-Venus and Venus-Pluto-Sun because "Containment Theory" recognizes the CCW order of the three planets. Lets compare them.
CONTAINMENT: Sun-Pluto-Venus from the PIC book. These individuals have a strong need to feel important, to see themselves as people of true worth. They may look for this validation of self in love affairs, or try to enforce their ego through seeking material wealth. With this containment the obsessive need to feel important will be obtained only through achieving ease with the self, and throusgh learning how to value the self regardless of outer trappings or the interest or attidtudes of others. POSITIVE: A goal-oriented intensity draws much of value to the individual. NEGATIVE: Egotistical fixation manifests as selfishness and possessiveness.
CONTAINMENT: Venus-Pluto-Sun for the PIC book. These individuals have a very intense love nature and are capable of enjoying life to the utmost. In this lifetime they need to be more forceful where love and values are concerned . Their intense appreciation of life's finer aspects can cause them to be lazy and lacking in long range purpose. If this is the case, they will always feel that something is missing. To overcome this, they should hold their consciousness to the central aim of their existence, whatever that aim may be. POSITIVE: A positive sens of values aids the individuals in attaining goals. NEGATIVE: Selfishness serves to block meaningful accomplishments.
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Again, the Ebertin CSI book offers concise definitions which many find to be a little negative or harsh. Yet, it constantly surprises me how apt they are. I don't find them too brief because I feel comfortable in both expanding them and modifying them based on the Sun-Moon phase and the Ascendant sign and any first house planets that help shape the personality and the way in which it may allow the mid-point combination to play out. On the other hand, I like the well thought out interpretations of the PIC book because it always pushes me to think more fully about how planetary combinations work in real life. It does require me to blend meanings or do some mental work when I use them for mid-points but I believe that I'm flexible enough to do that and comfortable enough with my astrology (after all these years) to keep both my intuition and skills intact. Please reflect on these two containments and let me know what you think. It may be that CSI is a better focus -- or that you feel comfortable blending the PIC readings. Dave.
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littleneptune 

dadsnook--much earlier you said:

"The planet at the Midpoint seeks to express itself through the combined characteristics of the other two planets."

I wonder if you can further clarify what you mean by 'expressing itself through the combined characteristics'. Would I interpret the 'combined characteristics' as a conjunction, even if they were in a square or opposition aspect in the natal chart (as in my Sun/Pluto=Moon) and then blend them with the Midpoint planet? I'm not sure how it works.
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More on mid-points


littleneptune, first, orbs have to be tight -- 1 and 1/2 degrees at most. If a planet is at a mid-point for two/more pairs of planets then the aspect that is most exact will probably be stronger. If you treat the three planets as a conjunction, that would generally work well. In a 90 degree chart, conjunctions, squares and oppositions are treated identically. The nature of the planets may suggest a conjunction (like Sun and Venus) or an opposition (Pluto) type of interpretation. Note that in the several examples I give below that there is a "me/them" theme or an intensity that one can lose oneself within.
SUN/VENUS = PLUTO: As I noted, the energies represented by Sun and Venus combined will have to express themselves through Pluto. Lets take them a component at a time, even though I'm sure you are quite familiar with them as used in conventional astrology. SUN represents self-hood, an integrating force that both reflects itself though each/all of the planets, infuses them with force and clarity of expression. VENUS represents harmony, balance, the ability to find affinity among many people and situations, artful expression. In a mid-point context these Sun and Venus qualities will be expressed through (in this example) Pluto. Pluto intensifies desires, anger and any feelings -- creating a power channel that can express as domination, control, a need to reorganize (tear down, destroy, change) in an irrevocable manner. Now, having this within a natal pattern tends to be more "moderate" than having it as a progression or transit which tends to "extreme" if supported by other factors. AS A NATAL PATTERN this pattern could be any or all of the following: 1) Intense and controlling in love relationships, 2) Highly focused and extreme in art work or music, 3) Playing control games within business or organizational structures, 4) Leading social groups along a regenerative path, even outside of the groups purpose or intent, 5) Choosing paths that tend not to offer options to yourself or to others.
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Ebertin's brief commentary states, "Strong excitability in love-life can easily lead to excesses. A fateful love-union (probably set off by transits). Under Sun/Venus psychological correspondences, Ebertin notes, "The feeling of love, the power of attraction, popularity, artistic leanings, a sense of beauty, music, nature. Strong potentialities of expression in the sphere of soul and love. The love of social life." Negative characteristics, "Uncontrolled love-attatchment, pleasure seeking, luxury; everthing is done for the sake of external appearance and show without intrinsic or inner value." Now, all of this has to be synthesized by other mid-points, the Ascendant, and other basic chart factors. Dave.
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