Modern astrological natal charts vs. Traditional

Cactus said:

Every time I read your posts (both of you) I understand clearer and clearer.

I didn't attach my chart only because I wasn't asking for a specific reading, although I realized it would have been helpful to include my chart just for examples. I suspect you may have located it in another post of mine? Anyway, there may be no point to include them now, since you've both answered my original question so excellently.

I do, however, have a question about the house systems. Do you use just one house system for all of your natal interpretations? I'd assume so because it would be crazy, too confusing to do otherwise.

I guess it's only the novices (me) who plug in Placidus, Whole, Equal...the only reason I do this is because my chart changes A LOT going from Placidus to Whole. Equal is in between the 2. And I'm compelled to consider all! Basically, I feel that since I'm a novice, I could take the advice given in this post and be clear on a basic interpretation. BUT...

But the fact is that I struggle to understand which chart describes me better because whole signs gives me 4 more angular planets (Sun in 1st, Moon in 10th, Uranus in 4th, Pluto - AACCKK, Minderwiz - in 4th).

I lose my lovely Jupiter in 4th.

AND seeing the whole signs chart makes me ask a question: If my Sun is in the 1st, and it's opposite Neptune, shouldn't Neptune be in the 7th house? Or is it so close to the 7th that it's conjunct desc?

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Cactus,

I would like to ad one more thing to your 12th house question and which house-system to use. You use what will fit you the best, and stick with it.

12th house (as well as the Ascendant) is the center of one's health and can be used for critical illness timing; especially with heavy Arcs/Transits (heavy=hard aspects to the rulers of these houses or planets in these houses, especially in 12th).

Your horoscope suggests there might be a diabetes running in the family (or extended family); your nutritional intake management needs special attention as well as the mind is high-wired (inclination to depression) and lungs might need attention as well. Now as we get older our bodies will eventually brake down and the 12th house (and Asc) is a great help to see, what are the weak parts in our bodies. In your horoscope also Neptune plays a part, because it's in contact with your Sun and Ascendant, as well as with Mars (aspect:quindecile 165 degrees) and is in Scorpio (it causes stress there - in the area of reproductive organs, gynecological). Now this all are just suggestions in the horoscope, which could be triggered.

With the Venus being in the 12th house - suggesting, that you do have a private sense of beauty, a dose of idealism (she is in contact with Neptune); as well as self-worth anxiety due to bewilderment from early home-life; important ages 5-7 approx.

It would be great research for you to see, when Venus or Mars (rulers of the 12th) was aspected via hard aspects (in Solar Arcs, or Transits) and see if there was any medical concern around that time.

Also Mars in your horoscope is peregrine (not making any ptolemaic aspect); that's why the 12th house keeps 'calling' you, because it dominates; it's the behind the scenes house -- aren't you doing all the behind-the-scene work in your company? (customer service, etc).

Also I've noticed 3 quintiles in your horoscope as well as Neptune involved; which might suggest there needs to be a creative outlet in your life; or there was. If not,the question is why?

I see, that you are from NJ. There are many workshops and classes for students of astrology. You should check out the www.aspnj.org (they are in Princeton, thought quite a hike from your Cape May location), or there is a www.cosmicastrology.org - cherry hill area. (i hope it's ok to post it here, if not, mods, I apologize).

My approach to horoscope analysis is a modern one (using the outer Planets as well) and here are my steps:

1) first impression - hemisphere emphasis
2) tension between house rulers (which one's); any grand trines or T-squares or Grand Crosses;steliums
3) Sun-Moon blend
4) Saturn Rx; Nodal Axis contact; parental tension
5) Moon's shape (hard aspects to her, especially from Pluto); Sun's shape (hard aspects); Idealism; Peregrine planets (without any ptolemaic aspects) and houses they rule
6) checking the self-worth 2nd house condition; mind (3rd) house condition
7) quindecile aspects; oriental planet
8) Midpoints (a nice extra, for the hard midpoint pictures)
9) missing elements; or imbalance in elements
10) aries point
---this is for natal ----

for predictions, I use the following in order:

1) Solar Arcs (easy, very-very easy; moving 1 degree per year, plus a little adjustment depending if the person was born apr-oct or oct-apr) - hard aspects ONLY
2) Secondary progressed Moon (for timing) -- I don't use any other secondary progressed 'things', just the Moon (only I would note if some planet will go Rx via progression - which year, or an Rx planet goes direct - which year)
3) Transits - only from the heavy planets - Pluto, Neptune, Uranus, Saturn; Mars (I use Jupiter transits only to Sun or MC and only the hard aspects - as a nice reward cycle; and the Jupiter return)
4) To pin-point the probability of event down to week or two I do use Tetriary Progressions



Best of luck with your studies,

ChillaB.

Lrt's try to simplify

Cactus said:

I have, I admit, a superficial interest - it's very on-the-surface. I know that if I continue to have questions about my chart, I need to actually HAVE IT READ by a professional (whether a traditional or modern one) who has studied medieval/Hellenistic/traditional astrological roots.

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I think we are perhaps moving to a microcosm of Astrology as it is today - a confusion of ideas, theories and techniques, which only serve to deter the beginner from trying to broaden and deepen their knowledge, or indeed from trying to learn at all.

So let's try to address the basics of learning for a beginner. I'd be happy if Dave and ChillaB would comment on the following suggestions.

The basics for a BEGINNER

1 - Learn about the planets as your first step. I would pefer the Classic 7 and the outer 2 to be added later but I can quite see that others may not so just bear in mind that there is a growing minority who question their role.

2 - Learn about the Houses and their meanings. At this stage it doesn't matter which House system you use - if you're going to get your chart done online then it's probably going to be Placidus, so keep to that, till you feel like exploring one or two of the others

3 - Learn about Signs - now here Dave and I tend to agree but we're not current mainstream. So by all means look at modern 'Sun Signs' and books like Linda Goodman's but also look at the basic sign characteristics - element, mode, gender and have a look at a traditional view as well as a modern - If you look at modern Sun Signs only simply be aware that these are questioned by many Astrologers

4 - Learn about aspects. Start with and keep to (whilst you are a beginner) the Conjunction, Opposition, Square, Trine and Sextile. Other aspects can be added later once you are sure of these but it's perfectly possible to practice good Astrology with only those 5.

5 - Now comes the difficult part; putting them together. As Cactus points out in the post from which I've quoted, cook-books tend to be the first thing you will use (I did and probably Dave and ChillaB did too at the outset). In one of his earlier posts Dave mentioned rules and alluded to medieval Astrology as being rule based. From what little I've gathered about the medievals their statements are not 'rules' but 'aphorisms' (not quite as strong by any means) - they were the medieval equivalent of a cook-book - meant for beginners but to be departed from later. Lilly was a lot more scathing of these than Dave, though he quoted them in his text, aimed for beginners. So try a traditional and a modern cook-book. perhaps the modern one first then a traditional one.

That I think is the bare bones for a beginner. After you've mastered them you can try out other techniques - some basic predictions for example. And then follow your interests and what appeals

Minderwiz... as I am a (traditional) astrology noob, your post is like music to my ears! I love you dude

inanna_tarot said:

Minderwiz... as I am a (traditional) astrology noob, your post is like music to my ears! I love you dude

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<Blushes> Thanks! <Blushes>

Just as an addition to the previous post for beginners:

Read a couple of introductory texts - Avelar & Ribeiro, 'On The Heavenly Spheres' (in the first post in resources and reviewed elsewhere) for traditional approaches, and there's plenty of introductory texts for modern approaches, I liked Stephen Arroyo's books but have a browse (again the resources sticky gives a number of books that can be read)

Read a book on the history of Astrology - Nick Campion's two volume set, whilst expensive is excellent from getting a good orientation on Astrology. It goes from the dawn of humanity to the modern era. (also in resources)

Edited to add

For those who are a little confused by ChillaB's definition of 'peregrine' - the definition is that of Noel Tyl (and is of course totally non-standard) Tyl clearly includes conjunctions in his definition, so the issue for Tyl's definition is 'is there an applying conjunction between Sun and Mars in Cactus' chart?' That comes down to the orb allowed. It's a brave astrologer who is going to say the orb of just under 8.5 degrees is too wide but it can be done.

Also followers of John Addey and other harmonic theorists will be surprised at the use of quindecile as 165 degrees. This is again a Noel Tyl departure from the main stream. Elsewhere quindecile is used for the 15th Harmonic, that is a separation of 24 degrees.

I'm NOT saying Tyl is wrong, merely that he uses terms in a very idiosyncratic way and readers should be aware of that.

For those who want to know more about the quindecile argument you might read:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4828&start=30&sid=ec62553a7c734c50431510a3a288df79

But I would only advise it if you REALLY want to know and have a good bottle of Whisky to hand.

Minderwiz said:

<Blushes> Thanks! <Blushes>

Edited to add

It's a brave astrologer who is going to say the orb of just under 8.5 degrees is too wide but it can be done.

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Yes, I do and I use it. I do use very tight orbs when it comes to natal chart analysis and consultations. Anyhow, how many measurements we need to get into the core of a person to have an enriching discussion with him/her at the consultation? However, if it would be a horary, I am sticking with the same classic orbs of 15 for Sun and 7 for Mars and planets up only to Saturn.

I do use the Tyl method in natal charts; it seems for me the best fit for syntesis.

about the beginnings......
Of course we all start at the beginning. I actually started to look up to the sky and identify the constellations and their brightest stars names of northern hemisphere back in a day when I wanted to be an astronomer and was in the amateur astronomy club which my primary school ran.

I then learned how to construct the horoscope via hand from the scratch with tables (back in the eighties); memorized the glyphs; however the cookbooks for the beginners are a must. I really don't know which one to recommend, because we all learn differently, and appreciate different teachers, texts, and approaches.

Maybe one should read/study Lilly - I personally studied and have his 'Introduction to Astrology' from 1923 (contains all of what christian astrology does) and than the old texts (Tetrabiblos, and others; Deb Houlding has them all in her site)

The cook-books I went through at the beginning were Rob Hand's books, Joan Negus's books, 'The only way to learn astrology-series' from March-Mcevers; most books for NCGR testings, Tyl books, Barbara Watters books (not so much cook-books, but excellent reading), and many more.. Some of them I liked, some of them not, it's to everyone's taste. This one comes to my mind - back in a day, when Diane Wilkes was my tarot teacher (she still is my very dear friend), she ran an intro to astrology course too, and she was using this tiny tiny book from Bruce Scoffield - 'User's guide to astrology' -- I think, I would recommend this book to any beginner (I mean a real beginner who knows nothing, not even the glyphs).


RE: the 165 degree angle - I use it, and it 'sings'. If we get into the fact that Uranian astrology (Hamburg school) as well as cosmobiology uses the division of circle (by 2,4,8,16,32,64), I think I am not being that much of a 'picker'.

I would like to ad one more thing,that there is something books can't substitute - it's a great teacher(s) who will fit to ones expectations and lot's of practice, lot's of chart analysis.

ChillaB.

Oops, sorry Dave, I somehow missed your post. Thanks to you as well!

ChillaB said:

Yes, I do and I use it. I do use very tight orbs when it comes to natal chart analysis and consultations. Anyhow, how many measurements we need to get into the core of a person to have an enriching discussion with him/her at the consultation? However, if it would be a horary, I am sticking with the same classic orbs of 15 for Sun and 7 for Mars and planets up only to Saturn.

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When it comes down to it, orbs are a matter of judgement on the part of the Astrologer, and as long as they're used in a methodical manner, there's no right or wrong here. There is always a risk - too narrow and we rule out something that is important, too wide and we include something that is not important.

Thanks for your take on beginners' approaches. I was fascinated by your used of both the traditional and modern. I went into traditional to establish a base from which to make better sense of the modern and to build a system. I'm still there, but don't rule out that there may be a time when I venture back.

I think one thing that your post brought home to me, is the consultation. This means that there is a clear focus on a personal issue or issues that go beyond the general and therefore may well require particular techniques at what one might call a 'micro' level of natal chart analysis.

ChillaB said:

I do use the Tyl method in natal charts; it seems for me the best fit for syntesis.

RE: the 165 degree angle - I use it, and it 'sings'. If we get into the fact that Uranian astrology (Hamburg school) as well as cosmobiology uses the division of circle (by 2,4,8,16,32,64), I think I am not being that much of a 'picker'.

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I have something of a problem with Tyl. Solar Arcs should be something that appeal to me, they are a variant of profections but instead of moving all the planets by one sign per year (30 degrees) they are moved by 1 degree per year. Trouble is Tyl's style put me off, rather than his Astrology.

His changing of terms is another thing that I don't like. The argument over the quindecile is really on semantics rather than substance. From an etymological point of view and Astrological usage, the fractiles are divisors - so a sextile is obtained by dividing by 6. Lilly and others occasionally refer to the square as a quartile (dividing by 4) and this appears to have been followed by the advocates of Harmonics. Now whether the divisor for a quindecile is 15 or 24 doesn't affect whether an angle of 165 degrees is a useful aspect, only what we call it (I suppose the divisor of 24 would suggest a semiduodecile) and ensure that we're all talking about the same thing when we use a word. His non-standard definition simply deflects the discussion rather than concentrating on what matters.

The same holds for his use of 'peregrine'. Yes, I know he tries to explain why he uses the term in this way but to be honest, it would be much easier and more true to the Astrological meaning to simply say he doesn't believe in the minor dignities and separately argue that an unaspected planet (by ptolemaic aspect) is an important feature for consideration - I wouldn't argue that conclusion at all. Incidentally I have found that the minor dignities work and work well both in horary and natal.

ChillaB said:

I would like to ad one more thing,that there is something books can't substitute - it's a great teacher(s) who will fit to ones expectations and lot's of practice, lot's of chart analysis.

ChillaB.

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I totally agree!

Another silly question, sorry sorry...

Are there any predictive systems where one can use only the angles, as opposed to all the house cusps?

Lee said:

Another silly question, sorry sorry...

Are there any predictive systems where one can use only the angles, as opposed to all the house cusps?

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Again not silly at all - The answer is 'Yes' and Dave is the master of one!

I'm glad this thread is still going - thanks so much to all who have responded. It's such a help to have beginners AND very experienced astrologers here to provide me and others with so much important info.

The posts about what beginners should focus on are excellent. As many have said, it's hard to avoid the cookbooks in the beginning. I'm learning so much, thank you!!!