By Wirth, or not by Wirth

Did you notice this looks like a Tarot of Bohemians plate by Oswald Wirth?

I only had the online 1914 to do a quick comparing, but the owner could have enlarged Le Bataleur from a French edition of the Tarot of Bohemians, as tracing or enlarging manually is a known skill using a homemade light box, and the watercolor done afterward.

Does that help? Jugglar from Tarot of Bohemians?

Cerilean

Sumada said:

Thanks for the great scans kenji. :~)

I just love comparative piccies like that; and your conjecture that "the pack may have originally included two L'ERMITE cards" makes perfect sence to me.

I've had three decks with double-ups over the years! Twice where it meant the deck therefore had a card missing, as you imply here, but just recently I got a complete deck with a 2nd copy of Temperance.

So, Debra, mistakes when collating a deck can definitely happen; with mass pproduction decks as well as with handmade ones.

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Hi Sumada,

Thanks BTW, I have another assumption: The owner who had had LE BATELEUR damaged contacted the publisher to ask for a supplement. They couldn't supply what he/she wanted, but happened to have a card (or some) at hand, which might have been defective and not sold. In this case it was "L'ERMITE". They managed to create a substitute with that...

Cerulean said:

I hope this helps. Larger scans were sent to you by other means, but at least this helps you see a variation.

The images were printed two to a page from 1926. The coloring and where the eyes are looking toward--to the right, left, forward, or at distance somewhere beyond the horizon...these expressions differ, this seems, in different editions of the book.

I do not know if adds to the mystery or seems to explain variations? I had to 'expand' the zoom level of the images 200 to 400 percent to see detail better.

Cerulean

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Cerulean said:

The L'Aigle reproduction is far darker than the 1926 originals and has thicker linework than the 1926 and the gold on the 1926--which shows as green on scans--is a flat and smooth, like silkscreen

It may be the print runs on your 1926 plates differ...is the print impressions of the name Oswald darker than the one of my samples of the 1926 I sent to you? Even the small scan that I noted here is plainly a different print run than yours-the portfolio is 1926, the book is 1927. iIt was a set and two plates to a page.

Even the face looks very different from your first image, the 1926, and the L'Aigle reproduction.

It may help your study of the linework and colors.

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Hi Cerulean Thank you for you kind help as ever.
The one I own is just like yours, but without the "OSWALD" impression. The image I posted in my previous post is from another source. This version, with more vivid colours, should be the same as the one in KAPLAN III, p543. LE BATELEUR has the different "look", and besides, letters and lines can be vaguely seen on the gold background. (This must have been some technical error.)

Cerulean said:

I only had the online 1914 to do a quick comparing, but the owner could have enlarged Le Bataleur from a French edition of the Tarot of Bohemians, as tracing or enlarging manually is a known skill using a homemade light box, and the watercolor done afterward.

Does that help? Jugglar from Tarot of Bohemians?

Cerilean

Click to expand...

I feel that doesn't explain the problems of the dotted lines on the green frills, and the designs of the three discs.

Rather, in terms of the man's total posture and the angle of the table, it seems to me the b/w one is comparatively the most similar of the three other decks.

I missed this thread until today. The belt on your hand-drawn Magician looks like it is attempting to show the signs of the zodiac, which I believe are mentioned in Wirth's book.

The Magician's eyes are more like the Dodal/Marseille woodcut ones. Which makes me think someone other than Wirth did this card - and using another Wirth source.

Teheuti said:

I missed this thread until today. The belt on your hand-drawn Magician looks like it is attempting to show the signs of the zodiac, which I believe are mentioned in Wirth's book.

The Magician's eyes are more like the Dodal/Marseille woodcut ones. Which makes me think someone other than Wirth did this card - and using another Wirth source.

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Hi Mary,
Thanks for your comment
Indeed the belt is a noticeable feature of this hand-drawn card, and I agree with you it may symbolize the zodiac. It is actually written in Wirth's 1927 book -- but it was for LE FOU, not for LE BATELEUR: 'This belt is made up of plates, probably twelve of them, by analogy with the zodiac, for it encircles the body of a cosmogonic person of extreme importance.' (p154 of Weiser English edition) In 1889 version the fool's belt is drawn as such, but the magician's is not.


Meanwhile, in 1926 version neither the fool's nor the magician's reflects this design. Now the fool's has been made to look the same as the magician's.


In his book Wirth emphasizes the combination of these two cards, contrasting them with each other. So, it may have been for showing this combination more clearly that Wirth made the belts the same. Their costumes are both "multicoloured", which I think also suggests this combination. Perhaps that is the key to the answer?

Or more simply, the hand-drawn card may have been just affected by the Rochias' design, which I am pretty sure Wirth referred to.


As to the magician's eyes, I admit they look like TdM design. (Dodal and Tarot de Besonçon, one of the models of Wirth's design, belong to the same category "TdM I".) However, I think they reflect Wirth's style rather than that. (Please see my first post.)

Kenji, are you comparing reprints and actual OW originals together?

I just saw a friend's copy of 1889 images and it turns out the "1889" you posted looks like a reprint. While the beautiful tiles inspired by Wirth in Le Bataleur are linked on the page below, the authentic looking box and recolored image of the mysterious version of the Le Bataleur card you posted seems to be from a very nice reprint, not an original Oswald Wirth. Please see link.

http://hermetism.free.fr/Avenieres/avenieres18.htm

From my guess, the 1889 version you posted is a reprint, that is why I noted it here for reference while I look around for 1889 originals, etc...

The recoloring is darker by about three to four shades at times, if the 1926 originals are actually a model. I compared my friend's 1926 with mine and the Oswald Wirth plates show light pastels where green actually was aqua, red was actually pink, etc. and the 1926 linework and such was compared image by image.

The L'Aigles reproductions that you also have posted as a sample for 1926 has the same modern recoloring or darker shade variations than an actual 1926 Oswald Wirth plate. I had also mentioned the eyes/face differences already, but that is just my take. It is hard for me to make further observations by comparing originals and reproductions, but I will keep searching to see if I ever come across any originals with the variations you posted.

I thought it might matter to others reading youir thread, because it is sometimes hard for me to distinguish between a reprint and an original when I do online searches and try to authenticate for purchase advice, helpfulness or commentary.

Cerulean

So far I have found no conventional deck but Rochias' that has this design of the magician's belt. So I think it can be said that the creator of this hand-drawn card should have known Wirth referred to Rochias. Or else...

Hi Cerulean Thanks again for your post.

I saw the link. This 1889 deck is what once Ms Rachel Ngyen sold to Mr Darcy Kuntz of "the Golden Dawn Research Trust". And the picture I posted here is what Rachel sent me before, so the pictures are of the very same thing. It should be a matter of scanning.

Also, the images of the 1926 version I posted here are not from L'Aigles repro. They are from a genuine "1926" version (If my memory serves, these were from Mr Wolfgang Kunze, just like yours.) I believe baba-prague has the same type of 1926 version (with darker colours), too. I remember talking with her at this forum on this matter. I assume this type may have been an earlier version, for I can't help thinking the faint letters & lines on the gold background of LE BATELEUR are some kind of error, which should have been later modified.
( I know this error happened because of what was printed on the back of the plate. See the attached image. I made its mirrored image and compared it with LE BATELEUR. The card shows exactly the same letters as those in the 13th & 14th lines of the statement.)

Thank you Kenji, the coloring question is answered then

So variations by several shades do happen in 1889 and 1926 printings and it is a matter of quite a few variables to find authentic decks. Your clarification helps me a great deal and if I find things of interest to your question, I will post.

This is exciting, for it adds to the hunt and quest of historic tarot.

Be well, and good hunting! Thanks again for your questions and I look forward to any other news and answers regarding Oswald Wirth originals and reprints. I am expecting an English copy of Tarot of the Bohemians, first edition, soon and if the linework of the Bataleur has any noticeable variations to the images on Sacred Text or otherwise, will contact you and others.

Cerulean

BTW, this is Mary - Cerulean, rwcarter and Shade are visiting - we are in the midst of a tarot orgy - which is why her note looks as if it comes from me.