'Your Horoscope' columns - a warning and a rant

Minderwiz

KariRoad said:
"Father" Wm. Saunders:

Please note that just reading a horoscope in the newspaper or the message inside the fortune cookie, and having a laugh is not a mortal sin; however, taking such a horoscope seriously or paying for some astrologer's advice is.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0109.html

I'd laugh, but it hurts. Mortal sin? Oh my old bones, spare me these fools!


Oh this is so sad - indeed one might also say 'sick'. Actually there's nothing in Astrology to stop you loving the Lord God but the church has basically two fundamental objections

Firstly if the future is predictable then God cannot be omnipotent because he would have limited power to do whatever he likes. But as it's an article of faith that He is omnipotent, so predicting the future cannot be possible and those that claim to do it must be fools or charlatans. This of course is a very mechanistic and deterministic interpretation of the word 'prediction'.

Now God might reveal his wishes through Astrological charts, which leads to their second objection:

Whilst divine revelation is perfectly possible, it really only occurred in Biblical times, and in a very limited number of cases since - some of those canonised as saints for example and only the church can determine the veracity of such a claim. Otherwise God's will is only revealed through Holy Scriptures and these can only be properly interpreted and mediated to the people through the (preferably Catholic) church. If Astrologer have a link to God's will, what need is there for a church? Their very existence is a threat.

Astrology survived because it was at the heart of medieval medicine and the prediction of natural phenomena, such as the seasons,etc.. The church/Astrology relationship was always one of suspicion - Astrologers could minister to a sick Pope (cardinal, etc.) but they couldn't indulge in judicial Astrology.

And of course similar attitudes pervade Islam and Judaisim (the latter exacerbated through a bad experience in Babylon). In the case of Islam it's really sad as Islam saved Astroplogy in the West after the fall of the Roman Empire, and provided one of the great flowerings of civilisation in the Caliphate.
 

AmethystEyes

KariRoad said:
"Father" Wm. Saunders:

Please note that just reading a horoscope in the newspaper or the message inside the fortune cookie, and having a laugh is not a mortal sin; however, taking such a horoscope seriously or paying for some astrologer's advice is.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0109.html

I'd laugh, but it hurts. Mortal sin? Oh my old bones, spare me these fools!
"The sniper who shot the little boy outside of his school left a Tarot card."

Wow! There is a difference between people saying that tarot is a sin and trying to link snipers to us! :laugh:
 

Minderwiz

DevilishAngel said:
"The sniper who shot the little boy outside of his school left a Tarot card."

Wow! There is a difference between people saying that tarot is a sin and trying to link snipers to us! :laugh:

Yet more pearls of wisdom from a religion that has borrowed heavily from Astrological symbolism but loves to denounce it. Anything to protect the power of the clergy
 

NorthernTigress

I only know my Sun sign and given that I do not know the exact minute of my birth, I don't see any way I could find out anything more. Maybe not everyone who doesn't know their Sun sign/Moon sign/Rising/Cusp/Planetary hokey-pokey isn't being willfully ignorant. Maybe some of us just don't know.
 

Minderwiz

NorthernTigress said:
I only know my Sun sign and given that I do not know the exact minute of my birth, I don't see any way I could find out anything more. Maybe not everyone who doesn't know their Sun sign/Moon sign/Rising/Cusp/Planetary hokey-pokey isn't being willfully ignorant. Maybe some of us just don't know.

Whilst an accurate reading requires an accurate time of birth, it's still possible to get a fair degree of accuracy by casting a chart for an approximate time.

If you know when you were born to within an hour, a chart can be erected that will serve very well. It can even be fine tuned, to give a time that 'fits' with your experiences of life, that is, the chart will be a good predictor of future change for you.

Fairly good approximations can be made if you know whether you were born in the morning, afternoon or evening.

Finally if you have no idea what time you were born, but know your birthday, it's possible to cast a chart for sunrise or noon.

ALL of these methods give far more information than simple Sun Signs because they allow the position of all planets to be fixed very accurately (apart from the Moon where it will be an approximation).

In the days before Sun Sign columns you would buy an almanac (you still can in fact) and that would give you enough Astrological information to draw up the chart, or you would have got an Astrologer to do it for you but most Astrologers used to write their own almanacs for sale to the public, Raphael and Zadkiel are the more famous producers but at one time there used to be thriving industry in them.
 

Grigori

Minderwiz said:
I like your analogy with Australian Cricket, but consider the situation where cricket becomes identified with the one day game and not the four or five day variety... The one day game can actually damage the five day game unless you take clear and coordinated action to stop that happening.

Sure., but a clear and co-ordinated effort is not a group of 5 dayers refusing to sully themselves by interacting with the 1 day riff-raff. What is needed is a way to engage people at the level they are at and grow things from there. If the astrological "community" decided to cut ties to those with less developed knowledge than they, the only outcome will be the end of serious astrology as the 1 dayers have already won that match. I don't think its possible to claim any kind of high road, when the world at large already thinks we're deluded nutters.

Despite any individuals perspective on the value of traditional astrological practice, or its role in the world, even from the most sacred of perspectives, we can't forget that astrological practice is a commercial entity. It can only be sold in our secular world as such, and if we don't understand and use that to our advantage, then again, game over. The heyday of astrology will never come again, as we no longer live in a society that understands things in a way that is complementary to astrological practice. Other divinatory arts are lucky in a way as they are more approachable, and so have a wider base of practitioners (of various levels) which means there is a pool of people who will go on to some degree of mastery. Until astrology learns to sell itself in small pieces that will appeal to dabblers enough that it may encourage further interest in a minority, then it won't grow (and I'd suspect will continue to decline and again die).



To use a different analogy, it's like writing a column on health matters that suggests that if you feel unwell you should take an aspirin and go to bed or that all illnesses can be cured by taking some antibiotics. There's a grain of truth in both of those statements but if the 'remedies' were followed in practice they would often end up in disaster.

I can relate to that, as a natural health practitioner that is the reality of my profession. And thank god for it. If there weren't constant reminders to people about the wonders of Vitamin C, folks wouldn't be thinking about us at all. A rule of marketing is people need to hear things (I think 7 or something) multiple times before they would pursue it. People will still buy watered down fluff which I would never recommend and it will fail, but it keeps the industry in the awareness of many who would not consider it otherwise, and that is reflected daily in my new patient bookings. I don't like much of the over the counter rubbish that is for sale out there, but I'm much more scared of it not being available (which is an increasing reality in many countries and is the death of the profession).


I used to share your point of view and I'm sure your friend does as well and is operating from the best of intentions. Ask her what would happen if she suggested to her newspaper that she wrote an article a week and dropped the 'Horoscopes'? Over a couple of years she could write over 100 articles that could build into a brief course and back numbers of which might be downloadable from the net. Now that COULD have a real effect. I just wonder if the Newspaper would dare to take it on.

Well she's not a friend, I don't even know her. She just writes the astrological column in the largest national weekend newspaper and I read it each week. And she does write a column each week, its right there beside the horoscopes. And without the horoscopes no one would read it, and I'm sure her articles would be canned. And after reading each horoscope, it is clear that there is more to astrology than just a sun sign, which appeals to those who are interested to find out more. For those who are not interested the horoscope will be there again next week and maybe after enough repetitions some more will be interested enough to find out more. If not, they go on thinking astrology is a bit of dribbly fun, and nothing was going to change their mind on that anyway, so no harm I reckon.
 

moderndayruth

Minderwiz said:
Yet more pearls of wisdom from a religion that has borrowed heavily from Astrological symbolism but loves to denounce it.
Mine doesn't... but then Kabbalah is not a religion. ;)

((((Minderwiz))))

I understand you and i think we have similar situations in many areas of ancient wisdom that has been commercialized.

Like Grigori, i also think people should be encouraged to learn and take as much as they can grasp at the time.

Yes, there is profanation - but that you have in all areas of modern society... i doubt it was very different ever - its just that with time only the work of major researchers and thinkers remains and everything else is forgotten, as it should probably be anyway.

I must say that i'd probably never arrive to Kabbalistic astrology, haven't i read Linda Goodman in my twenties - it was two decades ago...

To each their own and at due time.
 

Kibeth

Minderwiz said:
Whilst an accurate reading requires an accurate time of birth, it's still possible to get a fair degree of accuracy by casting a chart for an approximate time.

If you know when you were born to within an hour, a chart can be erected that will serve very well. It can even be fine tuned, to give a time that 'fits' with your experiences of life, that is, the chart will be a good predictor of future change for you.

I have Astrotheme ( http://www.astrotheme.com/profil/preferences.php ) draw upon birthdates and time to cast a daily horoscope. I find it is generally accurate on my personal planetary climates but erroneous at reading my daily moods.
 

HellzBelle

I'm still only just dipping my toes into the pool of learning/understanding astrology as it applies/affects me.
I've bought several books to help further my understanding, I've investigated different sites, I've worked with another tarotist on a series of spreads investigating the links/influence of tarot and astrology we put up on another forum some years ago.....I don't know how well I'm doing with it all, but I'm trying.
I read a daily horoscope in my local paper and it tends to make relevant/pertinent points to my life and its current events most of the time. I much prefer though a more 'in-depth' article coverage in the Sunday newspaper where the astrologer advises what is happening in the cosmos as to the movement of the planets and the current phases of the Moon, with a quick rundown (usually but not all the time) on how these movements might/may affect individual zodiac signs.
Six months ago I managed to have time off from work while the MindBody Spirit festival was on here in Melbourne, and I invested some of my hard earned $ in having my personal horoscope cast for the next 12 months. It gave me significant dates to be aware of and forecast events for those, I pencilled these in on my personal calendar and refer to it when necessary and add my own notes on the printout as to its accuracy and what is actually happening at those times.
I also have my Sun sign tattooed on my right bicep, my Moon sign on my left bicep and my ascendant sign on the back of my neck above a pentagram.
 

Grigori

HellzBelle said:
I much prefer though a more 'in-depth' article coverage in the Sunday newspaper where the astrologer advises what is happening in the cosmos as to the movement of the planets and the current phases of the Moon, with a quick rundown (usually but not all the time) on how these movements might/may affect individual zodiac signs.

That's the same one I like :)