Force and Form on the Tree

This idea of Force and Form is something in which I can readily find relavance in the world. That being said, I feel like I'm peering through windows which open out onto a landscape so vast as to be misty.

As I investigate I think more and more about how one thing (emmanation, property, influence?) begets another; how each thing contains the seed of its opposite; how depending upon its function a thing may be either masculine or feminine.

Wang says that Chessed is Form; Gray says that Chessed is Force. How do you guys understand this?

Chesed involves the taking of form, a first manifestation, but not Platonic form.
Gevurah hath more of the force.

Agreed; Geburah 'hath' more force (but not in itself) Chesed has the form (after the form is 'formed' by /in the sphere of Binah and passes through the Abyss into the first form of Chesed). 'Space' ... or the concept of space (as defined by 'Binah's triangle' ; i.e. up/down, left/right, forward backwards) is cemented into Chesed and a 'fourth dimension' is formed; time, or more correctly; the 4th Sphere - the 'possibility of time'.

Hence it is said that Chesed equates to form and Geburah relates to the motion of the form ... and when form is in motion we get the concept of time (concept; as time doesn't 'exist of itself', when a thing is in motion - like us, time doesn't pass, we pass through time and it appears time is 'passing').

So we have time, form, substance, movement. When a thing ( substance or mass) moves it has momentum and that gives force.

I have said it elsewhere here more than once; at times Wang (IMO) is wrong ... or divergent ... or lets say just different (at other times he is quotably down right wrong! - see posts on GD astrology, Thoth attributions, etc in G D threads.)

{Note: I gotta get new glasses ... I read that you were peeing out the window into fog ... and was just about to ask what the hell that meant! }

ravenest said:

{Note: I gotta get new glasses ... I read that you were peeing out the window into fog ... and was just about to ask what the hell that meant! }

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Indeed, sometimes I am doing just that: peeing in the wind.

Thanks for elucidating this business of: time, form, substance, movement... force. Elsewhere you've said similar things and I find it useful.

ravenest said:

... and when form is in motion we get the concept of time (concept; as time doesn't 'exist of itself', when a thing is in motion - like us, time doesn't pass, we pass through time and it appears time is 'passing').

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I don't know that this relates well here, but I've heard cards readers say, in a divinatory vein, that the Chariot denotes "movement". Conversely, I sense an awesome stillness.

treedog said:

I don't know that this relates well here, but I've heard cards readers say, in a divinatory vein, that the Chariot denotes "movement". Conversely, I sense an awesome stillness.

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There was a thread once about the Priestess, which I think is relevant here, although I can't remember its name. I do think the Chariot conveys movement, though, and so does the Hierophant, and both because of the Priestess. Ironically, it is easier to explain my point through the RWS. The Hierophant, descending down from Chochma, is the Word, the rules on how to create the universe, and well he should, for he descends to Chesed, where space "officially" begins. The actual structure of the world, the four elements, etc. The Divine wisdom, the words that make up the Torah.

The Chariot, on the other hand, holds within it the spirit of the Word, its holiness, its impetus, descending from Binah, the vessel God builds for itself, down to Geburah of change, disruption, formation, lava, chaos, mixing the four elements of Chesed, limiting Chesed's unlimited, immobile outpouring. The Chariot moves in the same way you can't see a plane actually move by looking out of its window; everything is just so big to it seems to be standing still.

Connect the Hierophant and the Chariot, and you get the Priestess. The High Priestess is traditionally seated inside the Temple, and in my opinion is not in the Holy of Holies, she is the Holy of Holies. The highest initiation is to actually open the Arc of the Covenant (commune with the Priestess) and so reach the ultimate resolving of dualities, Keter. "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." (Exodus 33:20)

The problem is one of Humpty Dumpty, as Kabbalah makes up its own words (and pays them extra!). When Chesed is said to be "outpouring" the connotation is of movement, even though it isn't. When Geburah is said to be limiting, the connotation is to immobility, even though it moves and is dynamic.

ETA: and vice versa. Everything that moves also stays constant, another Humpty Dumpty there, since things can be more than one opposing thing at a time. I find it easiest just not to try and resolve these things, since they make perfect sense when abandoning the intellectual

treedog said:

Wang says that Chessed is Form; Gray says that Chessed is Force. How do you guys understand this?

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Treedog, could you give us a page reference in Wang's book? Where exactly does Wang say Chesed is Form.

Maybe the idea came from Page 140, Figure 28 (in my 1987 edition).

Aeon418 said:

Treedog, could you give us a page reference in Wang's book? Where exactly does Wang say Chesed is Form.

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Exactly as Rodney sited: Qabalistic Tarot, Page 140, Figure 28; and page 142, figure 29.

closrapexa said:

There was a thread once about the Priestess, which I think is relevant here... [/i]

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This is really great stuff, closrapexa, these relationships among paths and sepheroth; I'm going to sit with it for awhile. It's good when it's like this, and it's like this now!