Aoife
Catboxer, Diana......thank you very much indeed for your wise and witty replies.
II La Papesse
Shade
I'm not sure tif this has been discussed in previous threads but does anyone know about possible connections between the depiction of La Papesse and the Sibyls. The Sibyl's on Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel were included because he believed that these prophetesses (including the Oracle of Delphi) foretold the birth of Christ. They are usually depicted either with a book or scroll or veils. Thoughts?
Also since folks brought up Mary Magdalene; on a documentary the other night I heard that certain apocryphal texts , in the gospel of Phillip have Mary being the first to suggets that the apostles go forth and bear witness. This would fit the "Keeper of Wisdom" role, and though I don't believe early decks were showing her as La Papesse, but future decks certainly might go that route.
Also since folks brought up Mary Magdalene; on a documentary the other night I heard that certain apocryphal texts , in the gospel of Phillip have Mary being the first to suggets that the apostles go forth and bear witness. This would fit the "Keeper of Wisdom" role, and though I don't believe early decks were showing her as La Papesse, but future decks certainly might go that route.
Diana
Shade: I found a web-site with some good pictures of the Sibyls.
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/michelan/3sistina/4sibyls/
Many indeed hold books which must be the Books of Wisdom, which is also the book the Papess holds, I believe.
The Vatican web-site says that "The Prophets and Sibyls testify as to the continuous wait of mankind for the Redemption. The former did in fact foresee the coming of Christ for the people of Israel. The latter, although belonging to the pagan world, are represented here because of their prophetic gifts, in this way extending the wait for Redemption from the chosen people to all mankind."
I don't think that the Papess in the historical decks has a direct connection to the Sybils - and at the same time.... there is a kind of symbolic connection.
The 1911 Edition Encyclopaedia says that "the Sybils was the name given by Greeks and Romans to certain women who prophesied under the inspiration of a deity. The inspiration manifested itself outwardly in distorted features, foaming mouth and frantic gestures." (This is obviously not OUR Papess
).
As to Mary Magdalene - I am one of those who tend to believe that the Papess was (is) Mary Magdalene - and your post certainly doesn't contradict my beliefs!
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/michelan/3sistina/4sibyls/
Many indeed hold books which must be the Books of Wisdom, which is also the book the Papess holds, I believe.
The Vatican web-site says that "The Prophets and Sibyls testify as to the continuous wait of mankind for the Redemption. The former did in fact foresee the coming of Christ for the people of Israel. The latter, although belonging to the pagan world, are represented here because of their prophetic gifts, in this way extending the wait for Redemption from the chosen people to all mankind."
I don't think that the Papess in the historical decks has a direct connection to the Sybils - and at the same time.... there is a kind of symbolic connection.
The 1911 Edition Encyclopaedia says that "the Sybils was the name given by Greeks and Romans to certain women who prophesied under the inspiration of a deity. The inspiration manifested itself outwardly in distorted features, foaming mouth and frantic gestures." (This is obviously not OUR Papess
).As to Mary Magdalene - I am one of those who tend to believe that the Papess was (is) Mary Magdalene - and your post certainly doesn't contradict my beliefs!
Shade
Diana said:
In some versions she is the only one to see Christ after his death, as if he wasn't resurrected in the flesh but appeared to her in spirit. A very controvercial suggestion to be sure, but fitting as the Popess.
Also, I've heard it suggested (On astroamerica I blieve) that the Golden Dawn Decks had Christ as the Magician, having a Mary High Priesess would be fitting. This would all of course be centuries after the Visconti decks I know.
"The latter, although belonging to the pagan world, are represented here because of their prophetic gifts, in this way extending the wait for Redemption from the chosen people to all mankind."
I read that Michaelangelo had defended including the Sibyls because he believed that they had fortold the coming of Christ. But then of course he is ratehr famous for trying to find interesting ways to justify a lot of things that appeared in his art. The numerous male nudes in the Sistine chapel for example.
Diana
Diana said:
I found this picture of a statue which seems to be of a Babylonian king. He is wearing a triple tiara.
http://www.bibliorama.com/expos/expo_babylone/pape_tiare_babylone.jpg
Ross G Caldwell
Hi Diana,
This is the head of a Kerub guarding the entrance to Ashurbanipal's palace in Nineveh (or one in a similar function in another palace), from the 8th century b.c.e.; it has the form of a bull's body with wings, and a human head.
The crown does indeed indicate divinity, and the "tiaras" are pairs of horns; conventionally, the more pairs of horns, the higher in rank the deity. Since he is simply a protective deity, I'll bet that depictions of the high gods like Enlil, Ea, Marduk, Ishtar, Nabu, etc. will have more horns (if any of these gods are depicted in the palace - I seem to think not).
Note that the Assyro-Babylonian Kerub is the origin of the Hebrew Cherub.
Ross
Diana said:
This is the head of a Kerub guarding the entrance to Ashurbanipal's palace in Nineveh (or one in a similar function in another palace), from the 8th century b.c.e.; it has the form of a bull's body with wings, and a human head.
The crown does indeed indicate divinity, and the "tiaras" are pairs of horns; conventionally, the more pairs of horns, the higher in rank the deity. Since he is simply a protective deity, I'll bet that depictions of the high gods like Enlil, Ea, Marduk, Ishtar, Nabu, etc. will have more horns (if any of these gods are depicted in the palace - I seem to think not).
Note that the Assyro-Babylonian Kerub is the origin of the Hebrew Cherub.
Ross
smleite
I was lead to study this card in a special position very recently. To start with, I’ll say that she actually comes to me as the personification of a virtue – maybe Faith, but better yet Prudence, the missing fourth cardinal virtue. It is true that Faith was presented with a book (the Gospels), and that some representations of the Papess included a cross, another symbol of Faith. Plus, she is a Papess!! And still…
In fifteenth-century imagery, the virtue of Prudentia (Prudence) was some times depicted as a woman sitting in a chair, holding a book in her hand, and showing it to disciples at her feet (in Émile Mâle, L'art religieux du XIIe siècle en France, Étude sur les origines de l'iconographie du moyen âge; with English translation).
The Greek goddess Métis, Zeus’s first wife, also personified this virtue, as can be seen in the celebrated tomb of François II, in Nantes cathedral. Her name is usually translated as Prudence, thought it seems that “Counsel” would be a more correct reading (and the reason why it can also be interpreted as Deceit or Perfidy, the “bad” counsel). In addition, Métis also represented wisdom and knowledge; as stated in Hesiod’s Theogony, “she knew more than all the gods or mortal people”.
This kind of early representation of Prudence, sitting in a chair and teaching from a book, reminds obviously Métis and her two main qualities, prudence or advise and wisdom / knowledge. And it reminds me (doesn’t it strike you too?) this High Priestess card. Some authors have tried to find the “fourth” virtue hiding in cards like the Hanged Man, since the other three, Justitia (Justice), Fortitudo (Force), and Temperantia (Temperance), are depicted in a clear manner. Now, I would say the High Priestess is a very logical answer to this question.
And what about the card’s name? Call it the “Popess” or the High Priestess; it still bears a logical connection with the image of Zeus’s counterpart, a Goddess, a Titaness. Also, Métis was considered to be an enchantress, since she was the one that prepared the potion given to Cronos (Uranus) in order to make him vomit the children he had eaten: "When Zeus was grown, he engaged Okeanos' daughter Métis as a colleague. She gave Kronos a drug, by which he was forced to vomit forth first the stone and then the children he had swallowed" - Apollodorus 1.6.
Ah! But Métis – I shall call her Prudence or Counsel – is Athena’s mother, although she seldom receives credits for this, since Zeus ate her before she gave birth, and, as we all know, the goddess came to the world from within her father’s head:
"Zeus, as king of the gods, took as his first wife Métis, and she knew more than all the gods or mortal people. But when she was about to be delivered of the goddess, gray-eyed Athena, then Zeus, deceiving her perception by treachery and by slippery speeches, put her away inside his own belly. This was by the advices of Gaia and starry Ouranos, for so they counseled, in order that no other everlasting god, beside Zeus, should ever be given kingly position. For it had been arranged that, from her, children surpassing in wisdom should be born, first the gray-eyed girl, the Tritogeneia Athena; but then a son to be king over gods and mortals was to be born to her and his heart would be overmastering; but before this, Zeus put her away inside his own belly so that this goddess should think for him, for good and for evil." - Theogony 886
Later on, Zeus was suffering from a headache, and asked Hephaestus to relieve him by striking his head with an axe. Athena jumped out of Zeus' head, fully armed. It is said that Métis stayed forever inside Zeus, remaining as the source for his wisdom. Mother and daughter have several things in common, both presiding over wisdom, knowledge, and the choice of right actions. The goddess Athena was the first to teach the science of numbers and all ancient women's arts, such as cooking, weaving and spinning. She was also the goddess of war, but not in the combative sense, preferring to settle conflict through mediation and good words.
Well, I have another reason to believe that The Popess can be understood as Prudence, and thus associated with Métis. When meditating on my Marseilles deck, I felt the need to find an “opposite” card for each major, in order to understand them better; and then something curious happened. The Popess appeared to me as card number four, and not as number two… odd, till I found out that this was her placement in some early decks (coming after the Empress and the Emperor, and before the Pope). Interesting enough, Métis was the Titaness of the fourth day.
If you consider the Fool to be the last card, them the exact opposite card to The Popess is The Tower. And isn’t The Tower a perfect visual metaphor to Athena’s birth? Even her epithet, the "bright-eyed" goddess, refers to the fact that she was originally a storm and lightning goddess.
Sorry for the long text, and for the fact that most of it derives only from my own feelings about this card…
jmd
Wonderful to have your further thoughts and exegesis on this card, smleite... and thanks also for the reference to Émile Mâle's book (L'art religieux du XIIe siècle en France: Étude sur les origines de l'iconographie du moyen âge - one I shall have to have a look at!).
I'm wondering, with regards to your last comment, if your correlation of the Papess with the Tower is construed by supposing, as you mention, the positioning of the Papess as numbered four, but also requiring some peculiar placements for the two cards to be 'exact opposites'... how are these arranged in your reflections for their opposites to become geometrically apparent ?... unless, with the Fov as last card, the Tower is likewise symmetrically re-numbered, in this case XVIIII !
With regards to Prudence in mediaeval iconography, and though your post gives much to reflect on, the more standard form is of a male with the Staff & Serpent of Aesclepius (not the Caduceus of Mercury/Hermes, which some unfortunately confuse). This of course is an inconsistency with the four cardinal virtues being normally depicted by four goddesses/women... though even here comments pertinent to Strength/Fortitude (in the thread on the card) also point that the iconography has various representations as to gender.
Again, wonderful to read your gifted reflections which but add to the communal picture unveiled with time...
I'm wondering, with regards to your last comment, if your correlation of the Papess with the Tower is construed by supposing, as you mention, the positioning of the Papess as numbered four, but also requiring some peculiar placements for the two cards to be 'exact opposites'... how are these arranged in your reflections for their opposites to become geometrically apparent ?... unless, with the Fov as last card, the Tower is likewise symmetrically re-numbered, in this case XVIIII !
With regards to Prudence in mediaeval iconography, and though your post gives much to reflect on, the more standard form is of a male with the Staff & Serpent of Aesclepius (not the Caduceus of Mercury/Hermes, which some unfortunately confuse). This of course is an inconsistency with the four cardinal virtues being normally depicted by four goddesses/women... though even here comments pertinent to Strength/Fortitude (in the thread on the card) also point that the iconography has various representations as to gender.
Again, wonderful to read your gifted reflections which but add to the communal picture unveiled with time...
firemaiden
smleite said:
What a stupendous observation! Very exciting ideas!!!
smleite
jmd,
I should have explained better why I was led to study The Papess as a pair with The Tower; I didn’t, because I am still trying to fully understand the subject… What happens is that I was recently meditating about the whole group of Majors, and their relative positions just didn’t felt right to me. I tried to fin answers, and then realized that cards positions had been a little altered in time. Even realising that historical information about their previous places is dubious, I found some possible placements for the cards, one of which is particularly interesting to me: the first five cards would appear as Magician (I), Empress (II), Emperor (III), Popess (IV) and Pope (IV). This is taken from http://www.tarothermit.com/ordering.htm, in Tom Tadford Little’s site, and respects to what he calls The Eastern Tradition, based in The Steele Sermon, Sermones de Ludo cum Aliis, c. 1480, author and locale unknown. The whole sequence is the Bagatto, the Empress, the Emperor, the Papess, the Pope, Temperance, Love, the Chariot, Fortitude, the Wheel, the Old Man, the Traitor, Death, the Devil, Fire, the Star, the Moon, the Sun, the Angel, Justice and the World.
Why this makes better sense to me, is hard to explain; anyway, it somehow sounded as the answer I was looking for... not to the mysteries of Tarot, of course, but to my personal understanding of it, and to my path thought it. I then placed the cards in these positions, taking Fire (The Tower) as card number XV, forming a circle. That’s how I got to form pairs. And I did so because it sounded like a good way to know each card better, not for some academic and sterile attend to “find something”! My idea of a “pair” is not of an “opposite” card, but of a complementary one, in fact. Some of this pairs have been like a huge surprise, even shock, because they forced me to see things I had never seen in the cards. Others, I am still trying to understand - but even those make sense (to me).
This is why I wanted, in my post, to insist on the fact that most of it derived only from my own feelings about this card. Anyway, I am sure that nothing wrong can came from the identification of The Papess with Wisdom, Counsel or Prudence… was she ever far from these “virtues”?
