Solar Jupiter rx

Minderwiz

A couple of questions and an additional comment

I always find Dave's work very interesting, even if It's not always the way that I would proceed. Here I've got a couple of questions on one of the techniques I've not seen him use before; the use of eclipses.

You seem to be using only eclipses that fall on or near a planet in the natal chart or SR chart. I'm quite happy with that because it fits in line with the later traditional approach of only using eclipses in natal Astrology if the eclipse falls on a planet or important point. But I'm not sure how far you take it:



Firstly - do you use aspects between the natal planet and the eclipse (I wouldn't but I can see an argument for using oppositions to the solar eclipse or squares from natal planet to either eclipse.

Secondly what orb do you allow between planet and eclipse?

Thirdly How far back to you go when using them with SR Charts (I can see that you don't have to use them with SR charts at all)? You've taken one of each before the beginning of the Solar year. Was that simply due to those being the previous two that had a conjunction with a natal/transiting planet or is there some other rationale?

Finally, isn't it stretching matters a little to use eclipses with the SR chart itself, because it's a derived chart rather than a stand alone chart? I would only have used eclipses with the natal chart itself as that has a more direct link to the native.

Apart from my last point, I think this looks like a fascinating technique.

I would also echo Dave's comment about the narrow range of forecasting techniques available in Modern Astrology. There's good historical reasons for this, Alan Leo who breathed life back into Astrology at the turn of the Twentieth Century did so against a background where Astrologers were in danger of being treated as fortune tellers and becoming liable to criminal charges (as indeed Leo was). Leo turned Astrology towards Character Analysis, something expanded on by the influx of Jungian psychologists in the second half of the century. Predictions became frowned on and discouraged. If you look at the Tradition or Vedic Astrology you will find a whole host of predictive methods (whether they all work is a separate question). So a revival of interest in Solar Returns is to be welcomed.


I'd also reinforce the point that both of us have made. Cold readings are always difficult because, as Dave says, we need to fit the symbolism of the planets and configurations hi-lighted. Cook Book style Astrology books give one or two meanings for a planet or planet/sign combination or a planet/planet(s) configuration. In reality any planet has a wide range of meanings, that might share a general property but don't always clearly indicate which of those range of meanings we should choose in a particular circumstance (Tarot Card readers will experience similar issues with cards). So while an eclipse conjunct natal Mars will most likely have a significant effect, exactly which of the many meanings of Mars will be activated depends on what's going on in your life at the time. There may be several possible candidates but a discussion can narrow it down.

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dadsnook2000

Reply to Minderwiz

ECLIPSES
I've only recently taken an interest in Eclipses. Part of this interest is due to a book, Lunar Shadows 3 by Dietrech Pessin. This is a most heavily researched and informative book, its no lightweight. I have chosen to note the most prior and next Solar and Lunar eclipses so as to observe their effect in a chart and to see the feedback from the subject. Interpretative-wise, I have not yet established for myself the manner and emphasis in which I treat these.
By the way, Ms Pessin advocates the use of eclipse families. These occur in 9 month intervals where in Solar, 1st Quarter, Lunar, last Quarter eclipses (or new and full moons in place of eclipses) mark significant stages in long-developing personal events and situations. I haven't begun to study those. That will have to wait until March and the release of the 2nd edition of my book.

NATAL AND TRANSITING PLANET INTERACTIONS
** My first or emphasized concern is those planets at/close to the chart angles -- natal or transiting. These are used to form the primary impression of a Solar Return or of an advanced chart to a specific day.
** Next, I look to aspects to those angular n/t planets. Those aspecting planets affect the expression of the angular planet. I prefer conj.-square-opposition aspects as these will, sooner or later, come to the angles on another day and become powerful re-expressions of the same patterns encountered earlier (in many cases. Angular distortion through the signs can change that).
** Third, I look for 'doubled up' planets. One planet (natal or transiting) angular aspected by another planet. That other planet having a relationship with some other angular planet. Two versions of the same planet having direct or indirect contact with an angle is very powerful. In those case where that occurs, the n/t planet may dominate the interpretation.

ORBS between Planet and Eclipse point.
I think I like about 2 degrees maximum. A close astrological friend uses 3 or 4. Pessin notes that up to five degrees works. At this early investigative stage, I lean to 2 degrees orb and would be more excited if closer to 1 degree.

HOW FAR BACK FOR ECLIPSES?
I'm not settled in a process or view point yet. It would seem that prior-following New and Full Moons would be almost as important as prior-following Eclipses, Solar or Lunar. The difference being that the nodes are part of the eclipse make-up, thus lending moer complexity and/or meaning. Many books point to prior eclipses going back a few years as being important. I have no opinion, yet, on that. My interest currently stems from the work I'm doing with t/Moon to/opposite n/Sun Returns, my book's subject. Eclipses are seen for now only in that narrow viewpoint.

The SOLAR RETURN AS A DERIVED CHART
I don't see the SR as a derived chart. I see it as the birth chart in constant unfoldment!! Each SR chart finds two characteristics as standing out. First, the t/Sun conjoins n/Sun. Second, the SR MC has advanced some 90 degrees (more or less), or three signs. This moves the Sun's position within the chart, chart angles, and chart house structure. I call these two phenomena the "MC-Solar Cycle." Cyril Fagan never emphasized this or saw it in the same way, nor did he use it interpretively in any way like I do.

The MC-Solar Cycle starts at birth, it is continuous, it is regular. The Sun moves 360 degrees in 365.25 days. The MC moves 360 degrees in 9 months, 2 weeks or 450 degrees or so in a year. It just never stops. There are technical variations due to the astronomical factors involved. The length of time between successive SR's can vary by several minutes due to orbital variations. The rate of advance of the MC is not a perfect flat line advance but is modified with an overlay of the Equation of Time variables. If we look at SR charts for Alan Turing, which I wrote about in ISARs journal (2011 or 2012), we find that the SR and daily advanced charts were quite telling for the date of his suicide, but just as telling for the date of his statue dedication and official government apology. The MC-Solar Cycle just keeps going on and on. The same for Copernicus and many others. U.S. Newscaster Edward R. Murrow, whose fame came from his WW2 reporting from Britain and Europe, dided decades ago, but the dedication of a journalistic college near Washington, DC was clearly marked by his charts and the MC-Solar Cycle.

PRECESSION CORRECTION
Here, I am going to contradict myself, somewhat. Natal, progressed, and directed charts are all based timewise close to the natal chart. The charts that are derived from the natal chart symbolically project time outward many years. But the charts themselves occur within several days of the birth chart.

Return charts are actually cast for dates that are many years removed from the natal chart. Transits to those natal planets are more accurately reflected when precession correction is applied. At 50 years of age, the incremental slippage of the Aries point year by year has accumulated to more than a half degree, or some 14 hours of added time for the Sun to reach its orbital point at the time of one's birth. This changes the whole chart rotational structure---and how one interprets it.

So, this should be a good record of our questions and answers on Solar Returns. You are right about predictive methods being a 'weak link' right now in astrology. That is why my first book, Personal Prediction, focused on using Fagan's methods in a Tropical zodiac format and incorporated may enhancements that he never had the time to research. My second book, Personal Moon-to-Sun Returns 2, utilizes the transiting Moon to/opposed the n/Sun as another effective predictive method for everyday life's situations, attitudes and events. This method uses a diurnal approach to advance the Return chart.

Dave
 

Minderwiz

So, this should be a good record of our questions and answers on Solar Returns. You are right about predictive methods being a 'weak link' right now in astrology. That is why my first book, Personal Prediction, focused on using Fagan's methods in a Tropical zodiac format and incorporated may enhancements that he never had the time to research. My second book, Personal Moon-to-Sun Returns 2, utilizes the transiting Moon to/opposed the n/Sun as another effective predictive method for everyday life's situations, attitudes and events. This method uses a diurnal approach to advance the Return chart.

Dave

Thanks for your very interesting explanation Dave, I'm sure those following this thread now have a lot to work on :)

I'm also working on some prediction techniques. My course leader, Chris Brennan, has come up with a new 18 hour lecture on Zoadiacal Releasing from Spirit (akin to the Jyotish Dashas) and another 9.5 hours on Annual profections. I'm only part the way through the firs of these, so up to now I'm trying to make sense of the new material and integrate it into my practice. He claims great things for the former technique and is now one of the leading experts on it. So no doubt I'll get round to a post or two on them.

I raise the issue because it's worth stressing another point you made. We never stop learning and there are always fresh areas to explore. It's one of the joys of Astrology.