Besieged Moon in Horary

Barleywine

In her horary book, Barbara Watters mentions that, when the Moon is besieged between two malefics (that is, it has just conjuncted one and is moving to conjunction with the other without making any other aspects in-between), no positive outcome is possible. I'm looking at a lost-article chart where, at the time the question was asked, the Moon in the turned 2nd House (my wife is the owner of the item) had formed a conjunction with Mars around 20 degrees ago and would conjunct Saturn in another 10 degrees. No intervening aspects occur from the time the question was asked up to the second conjunction. However, the Moon was only a few minutes of arc past the square to Venus (significator of the misplaced piece of jewelry) when the question was asked. Watters says that past aspects show events that occurred before the question was asked, according to the time-frame - hours, days, weeks, months, years or indefinite - shown by the nature of the signs and houses involved. Although the Venus square was separating but still partile and very close to perfection, it was still in the past. Watters doesn't say that the last conjunction of the Moon to a malefic had to be the last aspect formed by the Moon when the chart was cast, just that there can be no further aspects from the time of the question to the next conjunction. Any opinions on whether this condition would invalidate besiegement in this case? My gut feeling is that the item is gone for good this time (it's the second time my wife lost it).
 

Minderwiz

In her horary book, Barbara Watters mentions that, when the Moon is besieged between two malefics (that is, it has just conjuncted one and is moving to conjunction with the other without making any other aspects in-between), no positive outcome is possible. I'm looking at a lost-article chart where, at the time the question was asked, the Moon in the turned 2nd House (my wife is the owner of the item) had formed a conjunction with Mars around 20 degrees ago and would conjunct Saturn in another 10 degrees. No intervening aspects occur from the time the question was asked up to the second conjunction. However, the Moon was only a few minutes of arc past the square to Venus (significator of the misplaced piece of jewelry) when the question was asked. Watters says that past aspects show events that occurred before the question was asked, according to the time-frame - hours, days, weeks, months, years or indefinite - shown by the nature of the signs and houses involved. Although the Venus square was separating but still partile and very close to perfection, it was still in the past. Watters doesn't say that the last conjunction of the Moon to a malefic had to be the last aspect formed by the Moon when the chart was cast, just that there can be no further aspects from the time of the question to the next conjunction. Any opinions on whether this condition would invalidate besiegement in this case? My gut feeling is that the item is gone for good this time (it's the second time my wife lost it).

Lilly defines Separation as commencing when the faster planet is six minutes of arc ahead of the slower one. Separation is not complete till the planets have reached the limit of their moeities. For example Jupiter and Saturn would need to move 9 degrees apart before they are totally separated.

Lilly is a little vague on beseigement. His example has Saturn at 15 Aries, Venus at 13 Aries and Mars at 10 Aries. In this case Venus has not separated from Saturn and is applying to Mars. The whole range is covered by their two moeities. Abu Ma'shar seems better here. He identifies two forms.

The first is where all three are placed in one sign (as above). The second is when a malefic or its rays are in the second sign from a planet and the other malefic or its rays are in the twelfth sign from it. Note that aspects count in the second situation. In the first the planet and malefics must all be in the same sign.

Abu Ma'shar also allows an escape. If either of the benefics or the Sun aspect the besieged planet within 7 degrees, then the beseigement is lifted. This applies to both forms.

Beseigement, strictly speaking means that the Moon is somewhere between the two malefics...that is they will be consecutive conjunctions.

Now from your description:

Watters is correct if the Moon is beseiged by the malefics then its highly unlikely that good will come of the matter.

The span between the two malefics is around 30 degrees, so it's unlikely that they meet Abu Ma'shar's definition of condition 1, that is all three planets must be in the same sign.

Even if they do, the aspect from Venus raises the siege.

That still doesn't mean the jewelry is recoverable as the 'few minutes' past the square could mean that separation has set in. I'm using the Moon as a co-signficator for you/your wife there. . Unless there's something else in the chart which suggests recovery then you might still be in the same situation.

However it's worth checking the chart again, just to make sure.
 

Barleywine

Now from your description:

Watters is correct if the Moon is beseiged by the malefics then its highly unlikely that good will come of the matter.

The span between the two malefics is around 30 degrees, so it's unlikely that they meet Abu Ma'shar's definition of condition 1, that is all three planets must be in the same sign.

Even if they do, the aspect from Venus raises the siege.

Thanks for the input. To be more specific, retrograde Saturn is at 23 Scorpio 01 and Moon is at 13 Scorpio 57, both in the turned 2nd House (radical 8th), considering the radical 7th as my wife and the 8th as her movable property. Retrograde Mars is at 25 Libra 19 in the radical 7th. Venus (direct) is at 13 Aquarius 15 in the radical 11th (turned 5th), so the Moon-Venus square has separated by 42 minutes of arc. The last reliable sighting of the necklace was when we were visiting our son, to the East-Southeast of our home, but it's not clear whether it was actually worn at his house. I've also had an opinion from one of the other astrological forums that besiegement is lifted by the intervening square from Venus, so I'm prepared to discount it in the analysis; there are enough other reasons not to be optimistic, I think.
 

Minderwiz

I've seen a number of approaces to besiegement, the main variation being the allowed separation of the malefics (or benefics, as besiegeent works both ways). Some Astrologers will allow several signs, as long as there's only one planet in between,

There's also a more recent version text calle 'Planetary Containment' by John Sandbach and Ron Ballard, looking at planetary pairs and trios. My own feeling p, for what it's worth is that Abu Ma'shat is a ptobably the safest view to use. I don't go for anythind other than 'malefic' (things are made worse) and benefic(things are made better) interpretations.
 

Barleywine

There's also a more recent version text calle 'Planetary Containment' by John Sandbach and Ron Ballard, looking at planetary pairs and trios.

I've owned Planetary Containment since it was published in 1980, and haven't looked at it in almost as long. I just dragged it off the shelf and note that its all psychological character-analysis stuff, an artifact of its time. It doesn't seem like it would be of much use in horary. I really prefer Ebertin's Combination of Stellar Influences and the "planetary pictures" idea of the Cosmobiologists for melding three-planet combinations, but I'm aware that the "rules of engagement" (aka mid-points) are considerably more rigid.
 

Minderwiz

I've owned Planetary Containment since it was published in 1980, and haven't looked at it in almost as long. I just dragged it off the shelf and note that its all psychological character-analysis stuff, an artifact of its time. It doesn't seem like it would be of much use in horary. I really prefer Ebertin's Combination of Stellar Influences and the "planetary pictures" idea of the Cosmobiologists for melding three-planet combinations, but I'm aware that the "rules of engagement" (aka mid-points) are considerably more rigid.

I included it for completeness but you're absolutely right, it's of little use in horary and little use in event driven Astrology. It does however show how traditional concepts can be transformed (warped?) by the psychological approach.