Question on Marseilles Ten of Swords

Hello everyone,

I hope this is the right forum to post this question.

Basically, do the two crossed swords on the Ten of Swords point up or down?

The reason I ask this question because I recently bought an older Grimaud Marseilles, and on this deck the backs are not reversible if you look closely enough. On every other card in the deck the copyright appears on the left side, but on the ten swords it's on the right side unless I reverse it but then the back doesn't match.

Another strange thing is that on most of the cards with a single sword in the middle, the 3, 5, and 7, the sword is pointing down, but on the 9 it's pointing up. My little pocket sized Grimaud has all the swords pointing up.

I'm probably just being nit-picky, but I am curious about this. Is there a traditional direction for sword pointing, or is it up to the individual publisher?

Thanks for reading this. I appreciate your help.

Becky

Your question is one I also struggled with for some time - determining which is the upright for the 3, 5, 7, 9 and ten of Swords. Ie, are the central straight swords considered upright when pointed up, or down?

In the Ace, there is no doubt (and having drawn this card numerous times lately, it has become very close to my heart): it is upright when pointing upwards.

Personally, I wouldn't pay too much attention to the copyright note to determine the uprightness of the card - certainly the publishers have sought to ascertain what is its upright form, but the card image can very well be investigated independently.

My versions of the Grimaud have the back pattern quite reversible... though of course, if one gets to know very intimately the deck, the 'cut' shows which are the upright cards...

With the ten of swords, (to return to the main point of the thread - as maybe different comments may be made by some for the odd numbered swords), eight are curved, and two are generally placed diagonally, tips just crossing. Personally, I find this 'looks' upright when the points are above the pomels, but I also realise from various discussions that this is not universally accepted.

Hi jmd,

I think they look upright when the pointy end is up, so I'll probably just go with that.

The backs of this version of Grimaud has a black background with a sun in the middle and flowers on the four corners. The sun has different colored rays emanating from it. There are only two green rays, one at the three o'clock position and one at about the 7:30 position. So its very easy to tell if its reversed because you then have a green ray at nine o'clock and one at 1:30.

I think this deck is around 20 to 25 years old. The Lwb has a copyright date of 1977. The cards are copyrighted 1963. Some of the cards are rather yellowed but still in good shape.

Thank you for your help, jmd. Maybe I'll just ignore the backs.

Becky

My suspicion is that they point down. On my 10 of Swords, there are also two flower designs on the pointy ends. The flowers are pointing up when the swords point down, and inverted when the swords point up.

Whichever looks right for you is perhaps more important, though.

One more thing --- I checked the Ancient Italian, which is Marseilles based, and that deck also confirms that the swords point down. All of the swords point down in the odd numbered Swords in this deck as well, all but the Ace of course.

becky: In the Grimaud decks, all the straight Swords point upward. They are reminiscences of the Ace.

To be sure, there are a number of decks which seemingly depict swords as upright when pointing downwards. This, however, seems not 'right' when looking at the Marseilles.

I remember as a child, just south of Paris, many houses and farmlets had horseshoes upon their stable doors (and before I hear comments - yes, cars were invented and around at the time!). They were ALWAYS placed like an Omega.

In Australia, following what appears to be Italian tradition (please correct me if I'm mistaken), horseshoes, when placed, are always with points up (as in a 'U').

The explanations are similar, despite the differences: with the points down, it is to enable the flow of 'good-luck', of divine blessings, to flow; with the points up, it is to provide a vessel for the reception of this 'good-luck' or divine blessings.

With the swords, the three (in the Marseille) certainly looks often upright when pointing down - yet this seems the exception - and I personally, like Diana, consider, and, importantly, clearly see them upright when pointing upwards - as swords of the Just.

Again, this is not universally accepted. What may be worth discussin are what are the various meanings of the blade's uprightness vs its downwardness, for on display upon walls, there is certainly a European tradition of placing these downwards (cross-shaped).

Thank you for your replies.

I guess I'll just stick with the the way the backs are going. I've just received a Marseilles Convos and a Fournier Marseille from Alida, and their swords have the pointy end up. I guess that old Grimaud follows the beat of a different drummer.

Becky

Ah, in Brazil, the horseshoes put upon stables, and over the main door of houses, to bring good luck, point down.

People mostly do it in small towns, not in big cities, and I don't know, where this particular tradition comes from. Could be the portuguese, the italians, germans, french... The portuguese were the original colonizers, and the others came in immigration waves, during the 500 years or so, following colonization.

I always thought they hanged the horseshoes like that because it's easier. Requires only one nail, whereas if you put it like an U, you need two nails.

Alex.

jmd said:

I remember as a child, just south of Paris, many houses and farmlets had horseshoes upon their stable doors (and before I hear comments - yes, cars were invented and around at the time!). They were ALWAYS placed like an Omega.

In Australia, following what appears to be Italian tradition (please correct me if I'm mistaken), horseshoes, when placed, are always with points up (as in a 'U').

Click to expand...

Diana said:

becky: In the Grimaud decks, all the straight Swords point upward. They are reminiscences of the Ace.

Click to expand...

As well, in his book, Paul Marteau of Marteau/Grimaud deck fame shows all straight Swords in the Swords cards pointing up.