Musings on the Tarot of Marseille minor arcana

Diana

It's when I'm cooking that I ponder often about the Tarot. Because I feel a little bit like a Bateleur. I have my table (mine has four legs though). I have my Sword (knives), I have my Cups (recipients), I have my Coins (ingredients) and I have my Batons (the stove. Heat, fire... get it? :D ).

And this is what I was thinking today whilst preparing a most delicious salad (lettuce, warm feta cheese, nuts, olives, raisins, bananas and apples).

If one is looking for pre-set meanings for the Tarot of Marseille, and particularly its minors, then one is barking up the wrong tree. If one asks: "What does a 5 of Cups mean" (for instance) and one expects to find a list of meanings, such as in books entitled "Tarot in nine and half minutes", or "The Tarot of Marseilles in 78 Easy Steps", one is going to end up disappointed.... These books exist and they have their value, but they are insufficient.

Why? Because the Tarot of Marseille does not concern itself with Pre-Divination. It concerns itself with Divination. In order to divine (what a lovely word), and not to pre-divine the minors, one needs to impregnate oneself and bathe oneself with the Essence of the Numbers and the Elements. Because these are the two principal building blocks that the Tarot gives us in a concrete manner. (Two? already a number here.....) First one needs to study separately the Elements and the Numbers, and then combine the two.

This cannot be mastered in a few days, weeks, months or even years. It is the work of a life-time. The Tarot of Marseilles, the Ur-Tarot, is of an initiatory nature. And this is no mean task. When one starts bathing in numbers and elements, one can get dizzy with the greatness of it all. And I often stop to wonder: "What did I do to deserve to be allowed to attempt to touch the hem of this Wonder?"

Those were my musings for today.

The salad was Wonderful too. And while I am on the topic of food. I wish we didn't call those minors "pips". Seeds would be so much more appropriate.
 

Jewel-ry

Diana,

Your musings are just perfect. I love them. Aaah... Numbers and Elements. What would we do without them? They are the pre-cursors to understanding the Tarot, in particular the Tarot de Marseilles. I decided a while ago, when you and I had litle chats about the Crystal Tarot, and you begun to open my mind to the number side, that this was where the answers could be found. I remember the first Tarot book I got, it was illustrated with a Marseilles deck and I remember thinking 'oh, dont like that, I'm sure there are nicer decks to buy', but in the space a less than a year I have learnt so much and grown so much that I now feel that if I had to narrow my collection down to three, the Marseilles and the Crystal Tarot would be in it. I really have a liking for the unillustrated pips (re-named seeds in honour of Diana :D). I have just done Seekers number 7 and in that we had to work out our Personality, Teacher and soul cards and that too was a good lesson in how numbers and the Tarot work together. Mine was the Sun, WOF and the Magician and its easy to see how these archetypes are connected. Yes, your right, numbers and elements, if we can master them, we would have found the answers.

J:)
 

~X~

Diana said:

If one is looking for pre-set meanings for the Tarot of Marseille, and particularly its minors, then one is barking up the wrong tree. If one asks: "What does a 5 of Cups mean" (for instance) and one expects to find a list of meanings, such as in books entitled "Tarot in nine and half minutes", or "The Tarot of Marseilles in 78 Easy Steps", one is going to end up disappointed.... These books exist and they have their value, but they are insufficient.

Why? Because the Tarot of Marseille does not concern itself with Pre-Divination. It concerns itself with Divination. In order to divine (what a lovely word), and not to pre-divine the minors, one needs to impregnate oneself and bathe oneself with the Essence of the Numbers and the Elements. Because these are the two principal building blocks that the Tarot gives us in a concrete manner. (Two? already a number here.....) First one needs to study separately the Elements and the Numbers, and then combine the two.


This all makes sense to me. I'm ready.
 

Rusty Neon

Diana said:
If one is looking for pre-set meanings for the Tarot of Marseille, and particularly its minors, then one is barking up the wrong tree. If one asks: "What does a 5 of Cups mean" (for instance) and one expects to find a list of meanings, such as in books entitled "Tarot in nine and half minutes", or "The Tarot of Marseilles in 78 Easy Steps", one is going to end up disappointed.... These books exist and they have their value, but they are insufficient.

Exactly! Whenever I peruse the various TdM books in French, I read (and relate with) the analysis of the number and element and the identification and analysis of non-scenic imagery; then, I use it as food for thought, along with my own impressions and analysis. I generally don't even look at the divinatory meanings that the particular author "derives" from his/her analysis and, in fact, find those canned DMs to get in the way of my interpretation. :)
 

Moonbow

Ok, so its established that there is no written down meanings for the pips. Would you all suggest then, reading books on numerology and sacred geometry. And then what? Perhaps relate what these have to say and bring in to the divination process?

Many of the experienced Marseilles readers here (and you know who you are) seem to know alot about history, sociology, Iconogrphy etc etc etc, and you read French which must help. What concerns me is that if all this type of knowledge is necessary to read the Marseilles decks there's alot of studying to do. Which is OK if you have the time and inclination. I like to study, but I cannot spare loads of time on it. I don't want card meanings handed to me on a plate but if a person cannot spend this much time studying, are they ever going to be able to read these cards properly?

Also, is someone, one day, going to read one of my Marseilles readings and say "she's all wrong, the 7 of cups doesn't mean that when using a marseilles deck"?

Moonbow*

Diana - Feel free to move or delete this - I know its kind of messed up your thread
 

Lee

Moonbow* said:

Many of the experienced Marseilles readers here (and you know who you are) seem to know alot about history, sociology, Iconogrphy etc etc etc, and you read French which must help. What concerns me is that if all this type of knowledge is necessary to read the Marseilles decks there's alot of studying to do.
I don't think it's necessary to engage in a lifetime of study on these things before one reads with the cards. If it were, none of us would ever lay out the cards. I suggest you simply decide on a set of meanings for the numbers and a set of meanings for the elements, and start reading the cards.

Also, the number-plus-suit method is one way but not the only way to read non-illustrated-pip decks, as we've discussed in many other threads.

-- Lee
 

Diana

Moonbow*: You did not mess up the thread. On the contrary. I am glad my musings (the title was intentional) have been noticed by some people. I half suspected that my post would have been ignored, which would not have mattered much, but it's nice to know that one is being read. :)

A child of five can read the Tarot of Marseille. One certainly doesn't have to have read books on Sacred Geometry and History and Iconography to do readings with the Tarot of Marseille.

Notice I said Readings......

Because readings are just one tiny aspect of Tarot. Tarot's main purpose is, I believe, not to do readings, although these are a very practical way of approaching the Tarot and I personally love doing readings and I even have fun fortune telling with them :eek: . (Shocking, huh? - lol - ). I even do readings like "Should I put mushrooms in my lentils or not?" (I'm serious - I play with my cards all the time. And I can tell you that the mushrooms were delicious. :laugh: ).

I personally have tried in vain to understand concepts such as Sacred Geometry but I am too stupid. I have looked for a teacher, but there seems to be none in Switzerland. Perhaps they are all hiding in secret societies to which I have no access. :( I have found no book that speaks to someone with my small brains.

But at the same time, I know that if I do not gain one day a decent understanding of such a subject, my understanding of the Tarot of Marseille, and therefore Tarot, will be horribly limited. Knowing this, drives me on and on to seek further and higher and beyond.... for I hope one day to grasp at least something of this great Science (amongst others).

You know the saying "the more you know, the more you realise you don't know anything".

And honestly, if I thought that one couldn't learn to read the Tarot of Marseille without such deep studies, would I have accepted to participate in the Study group we are starting up? Althought our group is not called "How to read the Tarot of Marseille", but "How to read the non-scenic pips"..... there is a difference.

My musings were put here, and on purpose not in the Study Group, because they pertain to my beliefs about the Tarot of Marseille. I ask no-one to share them. People can think I'm mad - that's okay. People can even attempt to tear my beliefs apart but they will not succeed, because no-one can tear down Love and I truly love the Tarot of Marseille with all my heart and with all my soul. (Amen).
 

dolphinprincess

I've been trying to read all these posts bc I have toyed with the idea of trying to read with non-scenic pips... I've been a bit afraid to try, as I seem to have enough trouble reading with pictures sometimes.. :eek:)

But I think the idea of using the numerology / elements makes sense in my head.. and it may be nice not to be limited by what the picture shows...

There may be a thread on this, so I apologize for being redundant.. but what are some decks that do not have pictures on the minors.. aside from the Marseille, which I already know..

Thanks :eek:)
 

Lee

Diana said:
People can think I'm mad - that's okay. People can even attempt to tear my beliefs apart but they will not succeed, because no-one can tear down Love and I truly love the Tarot of Marseille with all my heart and with all my soul. (Amen).
Diana may not be referring to anyone in particular, but I just want to say that for myself, I do not think Diana is mad, and I am not attempting to tear her beliefs apart. I'm merely trying to point out that there are other possible beliefs.

Also, I have no particular desire to tear down Love. I'm rather partial to Love myself. :p

-- Lee
 

Diana

dolphinprincess said:
There may be a thread on this, so I apologize for being redundant.. but what are some decks that do not have pictures on the minors.. aside from the Marseille, which I already know..

dolphinprincess: I suggest you post this in the Tarot Decks forum. There are lots of knowledgeable people over there who know all about all the decks on the market! :D (and buy them too - lol - ).