Twisted 5 of Pentacles

TrueStar

Whever the 5 of Pents pops up, I laugh to myself and say: "beeh, not that bad!". The point is that I feel in a contradiction with this card: I can't avoid remembering the highly positive value that this one has in the traditional meanings (Marseilles and such). As you may know this other meaning for the 5 of Pents is almost the reverse of the one it has in the RWS: achievement of plans and, mainly, having a (sentimental) relation with somebody.

I wonder what was the intention of the creators of this deck when they put a so dark and pessimistic value in this card. There wasn't enough somber cards in tarot? LOL I guess they had their reasons for going this way. Anybody knows? May be kabbalistic reasons?
A. E. Waite in "Pictorial Key to the Tarot" said:
Two mendicants in a snow-storm pass a lighted casement. Divinatory Meanings: The card foretells material trouble above all, whether in the form illustrated--that is, destitution--or otherwise. For some cartomancists, it is a card of love and lovers-wife, husband, friend, mistress; also concordance, affinities. These alternatives cannot be harmonized. Reversed: Disorder, chaos, ruin, discord, profligacy.
That "these alternatives cannot be harmonized" always intrigued me... It's a pity this man was so obscure.

Anyway, what I would like to know is if any of the people that reads with the RWS also doubt with the meaning of this card, or if they see it just in the traditional positive way.

Thanks in advence for your answers ;)

Daniel
 

poivre

I have a problem with this card. I find it busy.

The snow I feel is the light at the end of problems. The light
in the building is ones own innerlight. Most of the card is dark.
So there is light & darkness with the colors in this card.


I use this card as a lesson that has been learned from past problems.
Time to change direction in ones paths after a disappointment.

So a lesson can be both
-positive as learning &
-negative as in having to make a mistake in order to learn
 

Lillie

First of all, I don't know nothing about Marseilles meanings.
I take it that they are different from the 'standard' RWS/Thoth meanings that I have always used.

If this is indeed so, then someone tell me where I can find the Marseilles meanings. (for the purposes of study and/or confusing myself)

But the 5 disks/pentacles and why it is so bad.

As you suspect, Kaballah.
5's are always bad, it is to do with their position on the tree of life. They are bad in all four suits. Strife, Dissapointment, Defeat and Worry. (Crowleys names, sorry, I'm obviously in the wrong thread!)

Of course there is more to it than that, but in a nutshell, 5 (Geburah) is a bad place to be on the Tree of Life!
 

TrueStar

Hum, looks like almost all the RWS readers see the 5 of Pentacles in the sense the picture shows.

Thank you ros and Lillie for your answers :)

Lillie said:
If this is indeed so, then someone tell me where I can find the Marseilles meanings. (for the purposes of study and/or confusing myself)
I'm not well acquaninted with the books on Marseilles published in the english market, so my help is reduced to only two titles:

- "The Tarot of Marseille" by Paul Marteau. I read somewhere in the forum that this one has been translated to english, but I haven't been able to find it at Amazon. I have it in spanish. It follows the positive meaning for the 5 of Pentacles. Devotes to its explanation a couple of pages. The author bases this meaning in numerology and the symbolism of the flower ornaments.

- "Tarot of the Magicians" by Oswald Wirth. This one is also on the Marseilles and it figures in Amazon. But I don't have it and can't tell you how it deals with the meaning of the pips, whether kabbalistic or traditional.

I hope this can be of any help.
 

Lillie

Thanks.

I keep telling myself I ought to get into the Marseilles deck. It always seems so old and interesting.

But at the same time it seems so complicated!

I'll keep an eye out for those books you mention, maybe if I read about the deck first I'll know wether to get one, and which one to get!
 

psychic sue

Lots of books refer to this card as "poverty" - I think it can also mean being so wrapped up with the daily grind - the rat race - that life's joys pass you by. The two figures trudge past the church without even noticing it - so there is a feeling of spiritual poverty with this card too.
 

Josipa

I actually like this card, I mean I don't have any problems with it. I see it as either illness or some hardships. If it refers to a person, I see that person as being weak, having low energy or feeling lonely, misunderstood, depressed. To me it is often a sign that one should seek out medical assistance, or try to shake off the blues by getting some company.
 

Amandajane

Personally I find the five of pentacles terribly disturbing,I feel a real coldness with this card.I certainly don't find anything wonderful about the snow(I wonder if that is because I personally do not like the cold weather at all).I feel it is about desitution and poverty(financially and spiritually).
 

WhiteRaven

Josipa said:
If it refers to a person, I see that person as being weak, having low energy or feeling lonely, misunderstood, depressed. To me it is often a sign that one should seek out medical assistance, or try to shake off the blues by getting some company.

I also look at this card much the same way as you do. Especially if it's a relationship reading....I find it represents lonliness and a "spiritual" proverty. If one were to do a reading on finances etc...then I would take it as the Old School meaning.....it depends what the question and spread is about.

WR
 

mythos

I have both chronic health and financial problems. Because I rely on a disability pension for income, I am perpetually broke ... especially given that I am a deck addict. This card doesn't bother me. For me it is just what is ... and as I have never had much need or interest in material things --- except decks and books and paints and brushes --- and I have come to terms with my health issues, and live a wonderfully creative life within that ... no problem. However, if I am reading for someone else who, for example, was concerned about being made redundant in their job, and the 5 of pents was in the outcome position, my response would be totally different.

I think any card needs to be looked at in terms of the personality of the querent and their needs and wants, their fears and fantasies, the question asked, the placement in a spread, the cards surrounding it that may modify its meaning for good or ill and so on. I guess that is why it is impossible to accurately say that there are any inherently good, or inherently bad cards. It's a mosaic of so many factors.