Sacred Empty Places.

SolSionnach

Okay, *I* have a question for the most holy search engine in the sky...
What's with the grave at the feet of the King of Swords? I was thinking that Hadar had invented that, until I got my mitts on my Dodal/Payen purchase. It's most definitely an open hole in the ground in those 3 decks... as well as the Svizzera 1804... but the Vieville doesn't have it.

I don't own a Noblet - does it have that hole in the ground on this card, too?
 

kwaw

A song of sadness about Pharoah (Ezekial 32)

sravana said:
Okay, *I* have a question for the most holy search engine in the sky...

What's with the grave at the feet of the King of Swords? I was thinking that Hadar had invented that, until I got my mitts on my Dodal/Payen purchase. It's most definitely an open hole in the ground in those 3 decks... as well as the Svizzera 1804...

Perhaps he oversees the graves of fallen nations?

17 It was the 15th day of a month near the end of the 12th year since King Jehoiachin had been brought to Babylon as a prisoner. A message came to me from the Lord. He said, 18 "Son of man, sob over the huge army of Egypt. Tell the Egyptians they will go down into the earth below. The women singers from the other mighty nations will go down into the grave along with them and others.

19 "Tell them, 'Are you any better than others? Since you are not, go down there. Lie down with those who have not been circumcised.'

20 "They will fall dead among those who were killed with swords. Nebuchadnezzar is ready to use his sword against them. Let Egypt be dragged off together with its huge armies.

21 "The mighty leaders who are already in the grave will talk about Egypt. They will also speak about the nations that were going to help it. They will say, 'They have come down here. They are lying down with those who had not been circumcised. They are here with those who were killed with swords.'

22 "Assyria is there with its whole army. Its king is surrounded by the graves of all of its people who were killed with swords. 23 Their graves are deep down in the pit. Assyria's army lies around the grave of its king. All those who spread terror while they were alive are now dead. They were killed with swords.

24 "Elam is also there. Its huge armies lie around the grave of its king. All those who spread terror while they were alive are now dead. They were killed with swords. They had not been circumcised. They went down into the earth below. Their shame is like the shame of others who go down into the grave.

25 "A bed is made for Elam's king among the dead. His huge armies lie around his grave. They had not been circumcised. They were killed with swords. They had spread terror while they were alive. So now their shame is like the shame of others who go down into the grave. They lie down among the dead.

26 "Meshech and Tubal are also there. Their huge armies lie around the graves of their kings. They had not been circumcised. They had spread their terror while they were alive. So they were killed with swords.

27 "They lie down with the other dead soldiers who had not been circumcised. They and their weapons had gone down into the grave. Their swords had been placed under their heads. They had spread their terror while they were alive. But now the shame of their sin covers their bones.

28 "Pharaoh Hophra, you too will be broken. You will lie down among those who had not been circumcised. You will be there with those who were killed with swords.

29 "Edom is also there. So are its kings and all of its princes. In spite of their power, they lie down with those who were killed with swords. They lie down with those who had not been circumcised. They are there with others who went down into the grave.

30 "All of the princes of the north are there too. So are all of the people of Sidon. They went down into the grave in dishonor. While they were alive, they used their power to spread terror. They had never been circumcised. But now they lie down there with those who were killed with swords. Their shame is like the shame of others who go down into the grave.

31 "Pharaoh and his whole army will see all of them. That will comfort him in spite of the fact that his huge armies were killed with swords," announces the Lord and King. 32 "I let Pharaoh spread terror while he was alive. But now he and his huge armies will be buried with those who had not been circumcised. They will lie down there with those who were killed with swords," announces the Lord and King.

In biblical idiom also, to sit among graves is an expression used of those who consult the spirits of the dead and conjure demons and other 'forbidden' things.

For those who prefer more pagan or secular to christian analogies, perhaps we can compare to pagan myths of swords from the otherworld (ie, robbed from the tombs of dead kings):

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6z9p464GbZgC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65#PPA64,M1

Or of old kings buring them:

"And finally, in a neat reversal of ancient swords acquired from burial mounds, the early thirteenth-century Danish scholar Saxo Grammaticus (one of those medieval sources that Shippey says Tolkien knew "better than most of their editors" [Road, xi]), relates several episodes where treasured blades are hidden in the ground by aged kings in order to deny their use to others (Grammaticus I, Bk 4, p 108, and Bk 7, p 220). (17)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OON/is_1-2_25/ai_n27059863/pg_8
 

Rosanne

sravana said:
Okay, *I* have a question for the most holy search engine in the sky...
What's with the grave at the feet of the King of Swords? I was thinking that Hadar had invented that, until I got my mitts on my Dodal/Payen purchase. It's most definitely an open hole in the ground in those 3 decks... as well as the Svizzera 1804... but the Vieville doesn't have it.

I don't own a Noblet - does it have that hole in the ground on this card, too?
What an interesting question sravana! No to the Noblet by the way!
In playing card history it has been traditional apparently for the King of Spades to have been King David, 2nd King of Israel.
David’s beloved son Absalom rebels against his father. The armies of Absalom and David come to battle in the Wood of Ephraim, and Absalom is caught by his hair in the branches of an oak. David’s general Joab kills him as he hangs there. When the news of the victory is brought to David he does not rejoice, but is instead shaken with grief: “O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! Would I had died instead of you, O Absalom, my son, my son!”
David also lost his son to Bathsheba, he thought that was G-D's retribution for killing with a sword Bathsheba's husband.

Now I would imagine there is this inference about the empty tomb of Jesus as Jesus came from the House of David.
~Rosanne
 

kwaw

Sword - Sin

Rosanne said:
In playing card history it has been traditional apparently for the King of Spades to have been King David, 2nd King of Israel.

David also lost his son to Bathsheba, he thought that was G-D's retribution for killing with a sword Bathsheba's husband.

His sin brought the sword into his house:

2 Samuel 12:10 Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from thy house; because thou hast despised Me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2 Samuel 12:12 For thou didst it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.’
2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan: ‘I have sinned against the LORD.’ And Nathan said unto David: ‘The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2 Samuel 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast greatly blasphemed the enemies of the LORD, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.’
 

venicebard

Ross G Caldwell said:
Some of the names are merely francisations of Italian terms.

mat
bagat
papesse
imperatrice
empereur
pape
amour
car
justice
bossu
rouë de fortune
force
traditor
mort
temperance
diable
gibet ordonné*
estoille
lune
soleil
ange
monde

(*the editor of the text, Thierry Depaulis, thinks that "le gibet ordonné" (a difficult phrase, perhaps meaning "the ordered scaffold" (i.e. the sentence)) is probably a misreading of "du damné", as in "maison du damné", which would be itself a translation of the Italian "casa del danato", which appears in this place in the original Italian. Traditor is already taken, and the Italian has the Casa del danato, so there has to be some explanation for this name.)

It appears that the French terms "Mat" (from Matto) and "Bagat" or "Pagat" (from Bagatto) held on for some time with players in France; the rules from 1637 use those names, as does the list on Vieville's ace of deniers (c. 1650). However Noblet's pack, from around 1650, uses the terms "Fou" and "Bateleur", showing that these names were also traditional by this time.

So we can only say that the earliest evidence for a full list of completely French names for the cards is Noblet's pack. However, I think it is reasonable to assume that French players, who had been playing the game since at least 1500, and probably a few decades earlier than that, would have developed these "native" names for the cards much earlier than 1650.
Hi, Ross.
I wonder, if one were to (as I do) accept Robert's contention that the Marseilles trumps originally lacked titles, is it possible that the convention of putting names on them could have been imported from Italy even if the cards themselves were not (my contention only)?
 

Ross G Caldwell

venicebard said:
Hi, Ross.
I wonder, if one were to (as I do) accept Robert's contention that the Marseilles trumps originally lacked titles, is it possible that the convention of putting names on them could have been imported from Italy even if the cards themselves were not (my contention only)?

I wouldn't think that, for a few reasons.

One is that the earliest Italian cards we have don't bear titles. We know they had titles, or names players gave them, from all the lists, but no surviving cards until the 18th century (IIRC - I'll have to check) actually have titles on them.

This only applies to the standard kind - packs like the Sola Busca had titles on the trumps and most of the court cards, and the Rouën cards for example bore Latin phrases. Some of the earliest cards of all, for example the Cary-Yale, have phrases that identify the subject - e.g. "Surgite ad judicium" on what we would call the "Judgment" card.

Another reason is that Tarot's popularity in Italy declined after the 16th century, and remained only in Bologna and Piedmont - in the latter of which the French influence was overwhelming, at least as far as the pack itself was concerned (the earliest surviving cards from this area date from the 18th century, and have French names). But Minchiate seems to have been popular even as standard Tarot died out in places like Milan, and these cards never bear names.

Bologna played the game continuously, but they never adopted names printed on the cards (and even only put numbers on some of them in the late 18th century).

Tarot picked up again in Italy in the late 18th century, and Milan and Bologna in particular made cards for both Italian and French markets. They printed cards with both French names and Italian names, in the TdM style and ordering.

Sicily too, which got the game in the 17th century, never has printed names on the cards - except for the "Miseria".

So I can't make a good case for Italian *printing* of names, although the names that players used go back pretty far.

I think Robert used to be able to show with good arguments that some of the changes of various TdMs were due to the addition of borders at the top and bottom of French cards, in order to incorporate names and numbers.

Ross
 

venicebard

Ross G Caldwell said:
I think Robert used to be able to show with good arguments that some of the changes of various TdMs were due to the addition of borders at the top and bottom of French cards, in order to incorporate names and numbers.
Thanks for enlightening me on the chronology of titles (I guess I was thinking because Sola Busca had titles tarocchi would have had early on).

As for early lack of titles in general, this I find weighs heavily in favor of a standardized order, hence an origin north of the Alps. Indeed how did someone from Milan play with someone from Balogna? Would the different rankings have been as well known as the different varieties of poker today? I guess.
 

Rosanne

Rosanne said:
"Have you thought Rosanne- that it might have all been said?"

"All been said?????....is that you Ficino? Plato? Shucks is that you God?"

"No- I am the great Search Engine... I have great knowledge of theoretical speculations that have gone before....do not look for me, for no orientation can be established..I am an echo of great threads....and anyway things move on to web links and the like."

"But, but.. but.. I have many questions, even if I cannot keep to rigid Historical facts...(I whisper "speculations sir....speculations) ....The voice came down again having obviously used his own engine to mimic Erasmus

"And so I'll say goodbye. Clap your hands, live well, and drink, distinguished iniatiate of Folly... try prodding them to post."

"OK......Hello..Hello...Hello is anybody out there?"

Haeatatanga! (The search Engine likes this Maori name as it means an opening through which light shines) Come forth! It was 2008 I last called you, and you were enigmatic as usual. I got tired of prodding these readers who do not post. I call them Karakias, those grey ducks that are endangered, and you count them by the shadows they cast- not their quacks. The ones who post are manawa-nui.. braves, for they keep this forum alive. Rise up manawa-nuis- this forum is Chain stoking.......

Is the Visconti Hermit a portrayal of Prudence or Saturn/Kronus or something else?
It would seem to me that the statement by Paul Huson...In Renaissance Tarot the hour glass often takes the place of the original lantern carried by the Hermit.. is misleading, because it seems to indicate that the Hermit is definitely Old Man Time.

~Rosanne
 

Debra

Qvack qvack qvack

So here's the card in question from the Visconti-Sforza deck, attached and also here, scroll down: http://www.tarothistory.com/viscontisforza.html with his hourglass and his old man's beard and a walking stick.

Well let's see. Time is Kronos / Saturn, who eats his children. I am slogging my way through Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces which everyone pretends to love based on the TV series but did anyone actually try to read the book I wonder. Anyway, he's discussing Saturn.

The benign figure in this card doesn't look like the typical Father Time, who is a "scary daddy" cannibal. On the other hand, this deck *apparently* lacks both Devil and Tower, so perhaps the artist was protecting the refined sensibility of his patrons.

Now Rosanne, why do you think it is not Time personified?
 

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Rosanne

I like your quacks Debra! Thanks for the card scan as well.

Well this deck is the epitomy of the silly hat Academy, and has some interesting features. It appears personal to the the Visconti/Sforza dynasty for starters.

The Hermit (we call, because it is unnamed) has a particular oriental look.
The hat he wears has one small detail, that sets it apart from other hats- it has a curly stem at the top. This stem was an identifying mark of a Jewish man. I have trawled through hundreds of images to find a hat worn by non- jews with a stem. Not a one! Not even among the hundreds of Medici frescoes with their red hats of all shapes and varieties. Yet in a Hebrew manuscript illuminations book- there they are, especially in the depictions of Ruth and Boaz and several Haggadah there is the stem on the hats- straight up ones, curly ones, and lopsided ones.

Now why would this Hermit wearing a Jewish distinguishing hat carry a sand clock/hour glass? The earliest depiction of an hour glass is in the fresco by Ambrogio Lorenzetti and it is held by a female figure for Temperance. Father Time is the symbol of the impermanence of human endeavour and is associated with Cronus the Greek God of Agriculture- hence the sickle and the Hourglass. The Visconti hermit is not a decrepit figure. He looks wealthy and prominent. Paul Huson entertains the possibility that he is Prudence in disguise. I think he is a money lender- a court Jew, a necessary financier- to whom the terms of interest where strict and governed by law and time. A loan had a specific time of duration- very important if you raised money to gamble for example, or to finance a war.

There are other indicators, but subtle. He wears a jewel around his ankle- and jews were forbidden to wear Jewels on their fingers, throats,heads etc. Nothing about feet and legs though. His coat is very blue another nod to his possible Jewishness.

I do not find this uncomfortable. I think it is very clever as an image. Like the nod to Diana in the Star card with the apple on her waist cord.

~Rosanne