Two Popes/Two Emperors?

What an interesting concept, two popes. I'm not sure I ever thought of it, but it could make sense.

As Rosanne said, you can find Pedro de Luna on Google Images:
http://www.larramendi.es/Poligrafos/pedro_de_luna.htm
I have no idea what the text is, but there's a picture. Not an attractive guy, but he does share some facial characteristics with the 'La Papesse' that Rosanne posted.

I don't -generally - pay a huge amount of attention to portraiture quality considering the size of the card and the fact that any portraits are probably second or third hand (ie off an engraving of a painting) and woodcut is a difficult medium. That said, if some visual likeness is there it might well be meaningful.

The link below covers the story of Pope Joan pretty well, and of particular interest (I think) is the discussion at the bottom regarding the story and its origins. I think there's a great deal of political significance to the Papesse card.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08407a.htm

Euri

euripides said:

The link below covers the story of Pope Joan pretty well, and of particular interest (I think) is the discussion at the bottom regarding the story and its origins. I think there's a great deal of political significance to the Papesse card. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08407a.htm

Click to expand...

Pope Joan is certainly an interesting possibility. We discuss her a lot in the thread I mentioned earlier:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=46726

And Ross has a very interesting page about her here:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot/papessa.html

RaeBelle, thanks for joining the conversation! I'm not sure if the image you linked to is Benedict XIII, the pope from 1724 to 1730... or the "antipope" Benedict XIII mentioned earlier. There seems to be a lot of confusion about him! Two popes with the same name!

I found this image of Benedict XIII:



And I found this example of the crossed Pallium mentioned by Rosanne:


The image is of Pope Nicholas IV. More info:
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0191.htm

And I also thought this was interesting.. of Benedict XII (not XIII), here:


http://www.catholic-forum.com/SAINTS/pope0197.htm

And this one is supposedly of Pius II ( 1405-1464 ), pope from 1458 to 1464.

Also of note, it seems the Papal Tiara (triregnum) "were worn by the popes of Rome and Avignon from Pope Clement V (d. 1314) to Pope Paul VI, who was crowned in 1963": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Tiara

So the iconography of the Tarot Pope and Popess seems to have been invented at the earliest 1305 when Clement V became pope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Clement_V

... unless of course the iconography was originally different and then updated at that time.

Perhaps I should explain myself a little more... while the Pope Joan story (which seems to be largely held to be fictitious.. and I'd just like to add, the concept of giving birth during a papal procession is something I find mindboggling...) is interesting, I don't think the card actually represents her (admittedly without access to any Tarot and Card history books at present, there is no doubt relevant information that I'm ignorant of) ... what I think is particularly relevant is the attitude about women and the papacy. The comment about the Pope sitting on a marble bath chair and his masuclinity verified as a consequence of the Pope Joan episode....


ah... now the link is probably elsewhere, but for those newbies like me who might have missed it, this page by our own Ross Caldwell

http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot/papessa.html

hmmm...

"Catholics countered in 1562 with the first systematic historical attack on the myth, written by the Augustinian Onoforio Panvinio. Panvinio argued that there was no trace of Joan in contemporary records and no interval to allow her reign. An even more magisterial refutation by the excommunicated Catholic scholar Ignaz von Döllinger in 1863 should have put the matter beyond dispute for any reasonable person, although of course this has not been the case."

Does anyone know the religious affiliations of the creators of the TdM? (with apologies for my apalling ignorance of European history!)

Euri

euripides said:

Does anyone know the religious affiliations of the creators of the TdM? (with apologies for my apalling ignorance of European history!)

Click to expand...

Who were the creators again?

le pendu said:

Who were the creators again?

Click to expand...

yeah, yeah, ok,....... *sheesh*

As far as I can tell, France was still largely Catholic in 1760. The Catholic church was the 'only way to salvation' and as such held everone to ransom, rich and poor alike, according to one page I read. The Age of Enlightenment seems to be in full swing, at least among the intelligentsia, but as far as I can see, doesn't have tangible effects until towards the end of the century.

Remembering the thread we have here somewhere about the Papesse on the Visconti-Sforza, who represents Sister Manfreda, who was elected as Pope by her order, and allowing that the Pope Joan story is either factual (and supressed by the Church) or at least strong enough to be accepted as fact at the time (esp. given that her image appears quite often), it seems reasonable to me that generally the Papesse is just that, the Female Pope.

However, there is also a lot of variation going on - not so much in a linear fashion, as offshoots - sometimes that are incorporated into future Tarot decks, sometimes not.

Could some of the images be the Antipope? I don't see why not. It seems plausible.

Found this old thread on the topic
http://www.tarotforum.net/archive/index.php/t-39257.html

Have we got scans of the Papesse cards - did you do some for a previous thread, Le Pendu? It would be SO great to have a resource of all the TdMs scanned and orderly... there's the Tarot museum but I find it hard to navigate.

Euri

We have a lot going on in the discussion. There are many possibilities, and sometimes it's going to depend on your own "leanings" to determine which you think most likely.

Just focusing on the Popess....

1. She was originally Sister Manfreda in the Sforza Visconti (or a nun in habit of some sort), and that developed into the Popess.

2. She was originally Faith, (such as in the Cary-Yale Visconti), and that developed into the Popess.

3. She was originally "The Church" in iconography, and that developed into the Popess.

4. She was originally Pope Joan, and that developed into the Popess.

5. She was originally an Antipope, and that developed into the Popess.

6. She was originally "just a second pope", and that developed into the Popess.

7. She was originally a female religious figure (Isis, Mary Magdelene, Virgin Mary), and that developed into the Popess.

8. She was originally a Female Pope.

9. Other ideas I can't think of now or have not been brought up.

As far as I'm concerned.. ANY of the above could be true.

So we're left with looking at the decks, and the iconography of the age, and the history and literature and social context... and trying to put the puzzle together. I like to explore all the possibilites as sometimes one wild suggestion leads to a real fact or consideration that adds depth to our accumulated knowledge.

One thing is pretty clear though... that when the Viscontis made a deck in the mid 1400's, *they* certainly considered the figure to be feminine.

As far as I know (could easily be wrong here), all records show her being refered to as The Popess, and no other title.

So that forces one to consider... well.. Did the Viscontis invent the Tarot? If so.. then that is what it is. If they did not, and they got the 22 from another source, then we need to figure out what that source likely was to begin to get a sense of what the Popess might have been, if indeed anything but a Popess.

I've *personally* been leaning towards the Bologna pattern. And I tend to give extra emphasis to decks that don't have the titles or numbers.. because I presume that the earliest Tarot decks did not have them. IF that is correct, then the possibility for "misnaming" is opened. And when we're dealing with the iconography of the early decks, I think it is fair that "misidentifying" went on as well. That's not to say that I discount decks that do have the title and numbering, as I have stated elsewhere, I believe that the TdM originally did not have titles or numbers either.

Unfortunatly, we don't have examples of too many early decks. There's several in Kaplan's books to explore. We've got the Cary-Sheet, and the Metropolitan. It's frustrating that the earliest TdM we have is from 1650. That's 200 years! And the existing Bologna is from around the same time, (although we can guess at a lot of the iconography by looking at some early sheets and painted decks).

Maybe I've already cornered myself too much into my own "leanings" to look at things with a bigger perspective, but on the other hand, I do believe that I am not convinced that any of the above mentioned theories is "correct", and I am still trying to find clues to help sort it out.

Some images for consideration:

First up, images from the Bologna... dated mid-1600s




Interestingly, the Popess has her hand raised in blessing, and the Pope does not. And looking at these images it looks like the numbers were "added". I have to wonder if the cards are misidentified. Is the second image the Pope or the Popess?