Two Popes/Two Emperors?

Thank you so much for these wonderful scans. I'll have to go through the various threads and organize a reference for myself.

I know I'm slow, but it just hit me: the numbering puts the earthly powers within the divine.

The sense of order and balance really demands a female counterpart to the Pope.

Edited to add: I've just gone back and re-read some of this thread. I guess my comments here are really a sort of a nod to what you guys have already said, as one might in a conversation.

This is The Pope from the "Charles VI" Tarot, which I believe is currently dated to the late 1400s. (right?)



You know what I'm going to ask.. Is it the Pope? Or is it the Popess? I can't find the matching card, and assume it is missing.

Hehehe Robert- sorry to labour a point- but that is St Augustine- I feel such an idiot not to have recognised Le Pape after all these years. ~Rosanne

Rosanne said:

Hehehe Robert- sorry to labour a point- but that is St Augustine- I feel such an idiot not to have recognised Le Pape after all these years. ~Rosanne

Click to expand...

Hi Rosanne,

Sorry if I'm being dense! It's 3:30am here... and I'm enjoying this so much I don't want to go to bed... hee hee.

Can you clarify for me what you are saying about the Doctor of Canon Law, and what it is identified with? At first I thought you were indicating that the Popess was showing this. Now I'm thinking you are saying The Pope is showing this. And somehow this is connected to Augustine... (I'm guessing because of the crossier).

My understanding is that the Crossier was used until the 11th Century by popes, and I remember seeing other images with it too that I should try to find.

Anyways.. lots of info and wonderful ideas flying here. Thanks!

It is fascinating and I too should be in the land of Nod Robert. Firstly The shepherds Crook was used by Bishops/ArchBishops/Saints- Not by Popes- the staff/rod with Three cross bars, or Knob topped was used by Popes. To have a Blue cappa as a Pope or a Bishop you would have to be knowledgable in Canon Law. The rest of them wore red cappa's/cloaks. A cardinal never used the staff/Rod/crook and he was also in red. It all goes back to Nimrods Rod. One Key or Shepherds crook and book was particular to St Augustine of Hippo- He was the personification of FAITH. The gold embellishment on St Augustines cappa was alluding to his wealthy background which he forsook for penury and the church and his faith gave him back the wealth in a symbolic way. If you like he was clothed in spiritual wealth. He was called Father -il Papa- what you hear the Pope called now. Now that I recognise him I am in a quandary about Le Papessa and when I get to my home computer I will try and get the sequence right. ~Rosanne

What a great thread this has become - and am looking forward to Rosanne's explanation of the iconographic identification of the 'Charles VI' popish card as St Augustine.

What to me seems very likely is that all major characters depicted on gold-leafed decks somehow referred to specific individuals. Of course, this has on the whole been relatively well studied for the Visconti-type decks, and the 'Charles VI' still needs to have its own detailed book published.

Assuming, however, that Rosanne has identified correctly this card from this deck, it does not mean that there is a corresponding singular correlation with earlier, contemporary, or later woodcuts, that may be iconographically more 'loose' than their gold-leafed cousins.

In terms of one of the earlier comments by le pendu in terms of card II's title, we must not omit it being named 'Pances' on the Dodal, rather than the 'usual' Papess. 'Pances', to recall its meaning also discussed in other threads, refers to the womb or paunch.

On this site that I gave earlier http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/augustine.html

On the opening page it says in the script *An excellent Website*- open that, choose the icon *Miniature*- scroll down to the 34th image N.160 and from the Breviary of Giovanni of Paurua by Parigi in 1415 is Your Saint Augustine on the Card Charles V1. How I wish I could use this machine better and not be so looooong winded. ~Rosanne

Hi Rosanne.. there's a "frames" issue with the url. The page with the link is on the "Images of St. Agustine", which loads a whole other site into the frame. I HATE frames on webpages!!!

Here's the image:

I also found these images of Augustine striking:







I'll have to see if I can find some other images of other popes with the crossier.. I know I've had them in the past.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the crossier *was* used by popes: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04515c.htm

jmd may be right, there may be no connection to "historic" popes (I think Ross this as well). Or maybe there is. I'm willing to keep looking.

It's important also to remember that the crossier only shows up in the Cary-Sheet and the TdM I decks. TdM II and many of the examples above show the triple cross.

The thing that gets me is the book.

Many Thanks Robert! In the Latin Prayer book I have at home, instead of the Heart in his right hand there is a Book and across his lap is One gold Key. It is the Key to the gate of the City of God. So now I am in a muddle about the other Pape cards you have shown, with the one Key. Two Keys crossed- I would say a Pope- one Key Saint Augustine? Aghhhh will the mystery of these cards ever be solved????~Rosanne
PS. about these *frames* glad to know I am not as dull witted as I thought lol.