5 swords: really defeat?

caridwen said:

It depends who you relate to in the card.

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I think the 5 of swords is fascinating exactly for this reason. The meaning is very different if seen from the point of view of the retreating figures compared to the fellow in front.

I tend to relate to the figure in the foreground, but I see his expression as though he was saying, "hey, come back" only just now realizing he'd played too hard or come on too strong. This card reminds me of the college football game this year between Georgia and Hawaii. It was a total mismatch which made for a very unsatisfying game. The winning team came out and played their best -- no one can fault them for that -- but it turned out to be such a slaughter that it was not a very satisfying win. It doesn't make the winning team bullies in my mind, it's just sometimes your best effort turns out to be overboard.

Or for example if you've ever worked for a corporation and gotten a well-deserved promotion only to find your co-workers resent you. That sort of thing. Sometimes getting what you want comes with a price, that's why I think the winner in this card is looking back, maybe wondering "was it worth it?"

I really shouldn't say this, because it was so crude, but it is nothing I will forget in a hurry, because, well, it was so funny, and still is funny!

You see, years ago, before, well, it must have been about 10 years ago roughly, I used to go to the pub with my brothers and their friends. There were some people sitting on a sofa type thing but attached to the wall, and the table in front of it. I went to say something to one of those sitting on the sofa, and my brother was standing to the side, I had to walk past him to get to the other person. So, I said what I wanted to say, left, stood in front of my brother for a few seconds - while letting off a silent but deadly. And then just walked off, didn't say anything, not pardon me, nothing. So, then when I got back to my place it took him a could of seconds he registered his disgust with the smell, then looked directly at me and asked me if it was me, and I just smirked!

Not totally related to the card, but the card and what everyone else has said brought back the memory

I tend to think it could be a situation where you just know when to walk away. Not to get in an argument, holding your thoughts to yourself, not necessarily smirking, but maybe. Depends on the context.

rcb30872 said:

I tend to think it could be a situation where you just know when to walk away. Not to get in an argument, holding your thoughts to yourself, not necessarily smirking, but maybe. Depends on the context.

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Sort of like poker...know when to hold' em, know when to fold 'em?

Funny story!!

terri

tmgrl2 said:

Sort of like poker...know when to hold' em, know when to fold 'em?

Funny story!!

terri

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Yeah, I guess. I mean, do you go with the bluff and risk losing all the money, or do you just fold. I'm not any good at poker, not much of a poker face here, everyone seems to know what is on my mind or what sort of mood I am just by looking at my face!

Thanks, I thought so too

rcb30872 said:

Yeah, I guess. I mean, do you go with the bluff and risk losing all the money, or do you just fold. I'm not any good at poker, not much of a poker face here, everyone seems to know what is on my mind or what sort of mood I am just by looking at my face!

Thanks, I thought so too

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That means you have a "tell." ....I learned poker when I was 5...my brothers could still always beat me...but I can play a pretty good hand of it now...but anyhow....your analogy about "knowing when to just walk away"
or when to "leave something alone," was good for 5 Swords...another meaning. (pretty funny analogy!)

terri

I really think this card is all about what you do AFTER the conflict is over. There are 5 swords and only 3 people on the card. Two people are already gone. They have gotten on with their lives. One is walking away, one is crying his heart out, and one is just standing there with the swords and perhaps smirking.

When the card comes up the question is which of the 5 people involved in the conflict are you? Did you win? Did you loose? What are you going to do about that?

I have been in that card many times in my life ! Sometimes I have been defeated and sometimes I have won. When a fight comes to you unsolicited and you prevail, yes, it sure makes me happy. I think his face is saying... try it again you son of a gun and see what happens.

I am referring to serious things here and not just nonsense things. Injustice I fight to the bitter end. Difference of opinions, so what ?

In the card it seems to me one is thinking, how did I ever get involved in this mess. The fellow by the water's edge is composing himself and while he has been beaten you can see by his shoulders he is determined and is not defeated.

Suppose someone does an injust thing to your child at school. You fight pretty darn fast. If necessary you go to the top, ie the school board.
No holds barred. Words or legal if necessary. You do not turn back if your case is just. You would be happy when you won and the injustice was corrected. This is a powerful card with a one minded swordsman. That is why he won !

I think as was mentioned in another post in this thread that the card's interpretation does depend on whom you identify with. The card itself is about gain, this gain is achieved at another's expense. If you look at the card you will see that the man who picks up the swords, smiles in the direction of the other men.
So who do we identify with if it is with the defeated then perhaps this card is suggesting to us here that one needs to recognise their own limitations, if you are not able to see where these lie how can you ever get over them? By not understanding limitations you set yourself up to fail - this is what the card reminds us of as the defeated walk away from a situation that they could not really win.

Do you identify with the victor here? then the question that arises from this is, are the swords really a two edge blade in that sometimes when you think you have won you may have actually lost - after-all you stand alone in your victory. It's message here is about the arrogance of victory and what it can do to you. Perhaps underneath it all it is a card that is asking one to weigh up our actions and reasons for those actions to establish whether the 'battle' is really worth it in the first place or whether in the end there is actually no winner at all!

The No.5 in my own tarot system has come to represent for me a turning point in life,and opportunity for change, along with struggle and strife, it suggests that there is always a freedom of choice and it is how we handle that freedom of choice and our responses to the changing patterns that life presents - will we rise to the challenge or not - it depends on how we manage this whether it results in stress, conflict and regret.

I see the card along the lines just mentioned. One thing I recently noticed in the card is that two "extra" swords remain on the ground. The man in the foreground retains his sword pointing to the earth, and holds the two swords belonging to the men in the background. The "smug" looking man does not realize that he has not captured all of the swords, he's too busy being impressed with himself. Technically speaking, the two dejected men could recapture the two swords on the gound if they saw them. To me, this card represents egotism. This is about petty victory, winning for the sake of winning to flatter one's ego. There is a gross lack of compassion for others. I see this card as "The World" reversed. I also see the two "defeated" men as internal components of the "petty victor." When you are egotistical, you seperate yourself from the world and you forsake your humanity, your true potential--- A heavy price which the arrogant egotist is destined not to recognize. But there is always a chance.