Interpreting Minors in Marseilles Decks

frelkins said:

And that is the heart of the issue, I think, for TdM people. Who's perspective wins? Yours, in context with the sitter, or that of the remote deck artist? Of course you are down with this point of view -- or else you wouldn't have come here! -- but I'm just stating this explicitly. I find the TdM very liberating in this context: I'm not beholden to anyone but the sitter and can actually reflect our real zeitgeist at the moment of the reading.

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You're right, frelkins. I'm really at a point right now where I don't want to be told what a card means. And I've also been questioning the meaning and purpose of tarot readings. Is their purpose merely to reflect life and all of our negative feelings and fears that we may bring to it, like a magic trick, or should they help us to connect with positive feelings and personal power? If we are looking for our readings to take us in a positive direction, then the TdM pips may be the way to go. There are plenty of "negative" or "frightening" images in the majors; do we need more in the minors? I'm not sure anymore that we do, or that I do, at least.

Originally Posted by ihcoyc
I find plenty of negative meanings in the TdM. Every suit contains fives, after all. But a lot of the heartbreak and woe gets moved from Swords to Cups, the suit where every card fully reverses. In the TdM, nothing prevents you from interpreting 9 of Swords as the mind and language functioning at the highest level: a perfect poem, an encyclopedia, a thesis, a fully realized philosophy.

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I personally don't see fives as being negative, nor the 3 or 10 Swords, and that's the beauty of the marseille pips.

I tend to assess negative & positive according to adjacent card(s), i.e. Swords & Cups together or vice-versa (as ihcoyc says) arn't always compatible. Sometimes Coins and Cups indicate a very material approach to the emotions/feelings. If a court is involved I note the direction in which they're looking, or if an object in the court image 'jumps' out at me I take similar (or wildly different) objects from surrounding cards into consideration.

However, I have been more familiar with playing cards, so must admit it's probably easier for me.

Bee

I was wondering if there are decks out there using Marseille imagery for the Majors, and having illustrated minors.

And, if you know, the basis for the Minors illustrations.

Two potentially valid schemes I can think of are:

*Numerology modified by elemental signification
*Meanings based on traditional meanings for reading playing cards

I'm not being original here, both Mathers and Waite employ both in their attributions of meanings to the Minors.

Of course your opinions about such decks are very welcome!

Since the 5's were mentioned here, I would see the 5's in Pythagorean terms as the union of (2 + 3), or masculine and feminine, or passivity and action. There is an opportunity here. There is friction here in a good way that yields something special, heat, spark, preliminary fire.

Or, we can see the 5 as destabilizing the solidity of the 4, in a good way.

Just like V-Le Pape-- who resides in a cathedral (and cathedrals were viewed as the inspiring of matter with spirit in how they were built), the 5 is positive crisis, opportunity, inspiration, higher thought, teaching or ideas to brought to bear, something different. Because the 5 is not perfectly harmonious like the 6 (2 x 3), this "crisis" must be capitalized upon, like a wave that must be surfed when it arrives.

But, of course, I know this thread is not about Fives, but I offer this as an example of how to marry the Majors with the Minors, etc.

There are a variety of methods for reading the minors as this thread already shows and using the deck regularly helps a personal method to be formed.

Looking at the card and taking into account the foliage, like whether the flowers are in bud, full bloom or wilting, the pattern formed by the implements, the number and its relation to the number before and after, perhaps the corresponding Major, these may all be used to help the reader. Sometimes a card will spark a memory or idea. Imagination comes into play too. The element can be used although I tend to use this less and less now, and prefer to think more closely about what the implement is may be used for, but I don't rule anything out with the Marseilles.

shaveling said:

Here's the relevant chapter of Tarot of the Bohemians from The Internet Sacred Text Archive website:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob52.htm

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don't quit ethe limited meaning applied. however, i do like the table as it is simple and a good guide to get started. at least for a structured person like me.
QUOTE:

KEY TO THE DIVINING TAROT.

1. Commencement


of Commencement.

2. Opposition

3. Equilibrium

4. Commencement


of Opposition.

5. Opposition

6. Equilibrium

7. Commencement


of Equilibrium.

8. Opposition

9. Equilibrium

10. Undetermined: The card which follows will explain it.

yara

ihcoyc said:

At any rate, I find plenty of negative meanings in the TdM. Every suit contains fives, after all.

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The fives weren't negative in the pre-GD decks. In fact, they tended to be the high point of the suit. As someone here mentioned - they are quite good in the Pythagorean number system as they represent marriage - the coming together of the first even and first odd numbers (2+3; 1 was unity, not odd). In Papus, fives represented the "opposition to the opposition" - not a bad thing, but rather strong and brave.

So, if you are using a Marseille deck without simply transferring Golden Dawn or Waite interpretations, you may want to think of fives in a more classical way.

Hello Teheuti...
1-One I just think must keep in mind that we are watching the cards from ours place and time,so different from the decks were done.
For example the 7 of DENIERS on Dodal deck is unnumbered...
2-What we will think thus...
A simple negligence ? / I don t think so...
A Hidden message within ? / Just may be...
3-See also that Jean Dodal did a deck for the outside of France,so why he numbered XII as IIX ?
Isn t help them,dont you think ?
4-I think one must keep in mind that after all was a card game,so the card players must had clear rules...
Not ?

Eugim

eugim: Hello again.
Is the XII IIX switch because the hanging man is upside down?
I would like to see a picture of that one.

Teheuti:

I was reading a recent book on the Marseille lately (I believe you will recognize which one) in which the author said that he just does not do negative interpretations. So all of his card meanings and combinations said something favorable. Swords were all positive, odd numbers were "dynamic" etc. I really admire (that part at least) of his attitude, but it still left me unsatisfied. I need to see SOMETHING negative in a picture for figure-ground chemistry to happen so it looks real to me.

My question is: In the pre-GD classical tradition, are there any individual cards or combinations that you personally view as "less positive" than others?

Thanks.