Force and Form on the Tree

Aeon418

Maybe the idea came from Page 140, Figure 28 (in my 1987 edition).

Ah gotcha!

Yeah that is curious. I'm not sure about joining ravenest in denouncing it as flat out wrong. After all there are lots of different attribution systems in K/Q/C/abalah. But it does seem 'non-standard'.

What is Wang mapping here? Elements? Does his Force = Yod-Fire and Form = Heh-Water.
In that case Force-Fire does zig-zag across the Tree from Chokmah - Geburah - Netzach. And Form-Water goes Binah - Chesed - Hod.
 

Richard

.....What is Wang mapping here? Elements? Does his Force = Yod-Fire and Form = Heh-Water.
Yes...
In that case Force-Fire does zig-zag across the Tree from Chokmah - Geburah - Netzach. And Form-Water goes Binah - Chesed - Hod.
 

ravenest

I'm not sure about joining ravenest in denouncing it as flat out wrong.

I denounced this as flat out wrong? :confused:

I have said it elsewhere here more than once; at times Wang (IMO) is wrong ... or divergent ... or lets say just different (at other times he is quotably down right wrong! - see posts on GD astrology, Thoth attributions, etc in G D threads.)

"At times ..." Maybe this is a time when he was variant? With one specific viewpoint or explanation of the energies and systems represented by the Tree ... like my one above was?

I know you agree; " After all there are lots of different attribution systems in K/Q/C/abalah."

Other times where " he is quotably down right wrong!" ... or I claim he is , is in the post referred to where he made an interpretation of information from the Bot and added incorrect info to it. I posted his quote and Crowley's from BoT and they are different.
 

Zephyros

I temporarily don't have my books, so I can't see the exact quote, but can't this be resolved as being both? Binah is the both the dark infertile mother of form, and also the bright fertile mother sending on the rules to Chesed. Chesed, too, has a dual nature of accepting from above and sending below. Except for Keter, all emanations contain their own contradictions.
 

Laurel

One of the big things that's helped me in my 20 years of Qabalistic studies is to consider duality & polarity as one of the fundamental concepts that the Tree expresses on multiple levels in multiple ways. To me, Chokmah-Binah are the core archetypes of force & form. Binah has Geburah below and Chokmah to the right. Both are expressions of force compared to Binah. Chesed has Chokmah above and Geburah to the left. It's formative in comparison to their forceful energies, but it still doesn't have the pure archetype of form like Binah. Geburah doesn't have the pure archetype of force like Chokmah. But its more forceful (dynamic, yang) than the sephira above, below, and across from it. Chesed is more formative (receptive, yin) than the sephira above, below and across from it. I perceive the +/- type of "charge" in each and every pair of sephira, which can be triangulated/synthesized by a third and I've found this very useful in meditation and other applications.
 

treedog

One of the big things that's helped me in my 20 years of Qabalistic studies is to consider duality & polarity as one of the fundamental concepts that the Tree expresses on multiple levels in multiple ways...

I read in your experience and understanding of the issue a gestalt that is neither this nor that, but something deeper. "Room for Everything," as they say in Zazen. Works for me.
 

Aeon418

Din

Binah has Geburah below and Chokmah to the right. Both are expressions of force compared to Binah. Chesed has Chokmah above and Geburah to the left. It's formative in comparison to their forceful energies, but it still doesn't have the pure archetype of form like Binah.

Geburah is situated on the Pillar of Severity. Therefore it is a sephirah of Form. On a superficial level it appears to be a Force sephira. But the seemingly violent and forceful nature of Geburah is a direct result of the strict Discipline imposed by this sephira.

Chesed is situated on the Pillar of Mercy. Therefore it is a sephirah of Force. On a superficial level it appears to be a Form sephira due to it's stability. But it is actually a sphere of expansive force. Geburah emerges as a direct consequnce of Chesed's expansion. It controls and strengthens the outpouring energy of Chesed through discipline and destroys anything imperfect or weak.
 

Zephyros

I got home and looked at the passage in question, and while I wouldn't exactly put it in Wang's words, I do see the logic of where he's coming from.

Robert Wang said:
Before proceeding further, it seems important to point out that the complex discussion which follows is presented not so much for its content but for its method of analyzing the Tree. (p. 141)

It seems he is taking a more practical, rather than theoretical, route, and is mapping out the relativity of the Tree rather than base definitions.
 

ravenest

I temporarily don't have my books, so I can't see the exact quote, but can't this be resolved as being both? Binah is the both the dark infertile mother of form, and also the bright fertile mother sending on the rules to Chesed. Chesed, too, has a dual nature of accepting from above and sending below. Except for Keter, all emanations contain their own contradictions.

Certainly it can be both ... and more. Geburah contains form and passes it on as it 'inherited it' from Chesed ... and the ideal form came from Binah. I see all the spheres as containing the energies (or form of the energy) of the sphere 'before' them.

It is the form structured by Chesed that takes on motion in Geburah, as it 'comes out' of Geburah it is 'force'. Now the ideal form has form and is in motion ... the from now has motion. I don't see the motion as describing anything else other than a state that form can be in.

Binah is Saturn as the constructor of forms (hence limits) 'going down' the Tree but the liberator from them 'going up'. One could see that as a wonderful free liberation or a process of destruction (depending on the position of view).

Kether may not contain 'contradictions' ( against unity) , but that does not make it immune to working in dual aspects.

Now I have done it haven't I ? :laugh: (covers up, protects head and ribs)

What I mean is ... it still 'receives' and 'gives out'.

Or; 'God' 'retreated' to make 'space' for 'God' (Kether) to manifest. (Does western Hermetic Q/K/Cab/bal/la have Tzimtzum ?
 

Zephyros

Or; 'God' 'retreated' to make 'space' for 'God' (Kether) to manifest. (Does western Hermetic Q/K/Cab/bal/la have Tzimtzum ?

I suspect so. It seems unavoidable. The Kirtcher Tree may be easier to understand at a glance and to work with in practical terms, but it is the ringed diagram that I believe is closer to how things "really" are. There is really only one Sephira, everything is inside Keter, which carries out a process of Tzimzum on itself. It is also the product of Tzimzum, by degrees ultimately from the complete nothingness of Ain; in essence, Keter in nothingness contracted.

But as usual, I'm BSing, and can go on for hours saying meaningless things like that. :)
I don't remember where, but DuQuette said something to the effect, and also that there was only one Tarot card, the Fool. Etc.