Pets in horary.

willowfox

Yes some of that vegetation is incredibly dense but not high, I noticed even the local dogs didn't go in. But Bird has always answered to the sound of my voice, and screamed and shouted when he heard my scooter, but these past 12 days nothing.
 

Minderwiz

Well 'high' is relative to the place, but it is worrying that there's no response. I'vedone a chart and will post it later, when I've gone through it again. The problem is that with each passing day he could move about and even relatively small moves in the same direction would accumulate over that length of time. He will need to eat and food supplies could drive his movements.

I must admit that with the passage of time it makes recovery more unlikely, unless he is able to find you. If this area is strange to him that would be difficult. :(

I'd be interested in your second chart, which led you to believe you'd never recover him. I guess the place is the same, so can you give me day and time. A number of charts might give a better overview
 

willowfox

Do you get the impression that he's dead as I now do, there's no food in that wasteland area, just grasses etc, decaying trees and human rubbish, like the usual plastic bags, bottles and broken toilets. Thais like to throw their rubbish away everywhere, they don't care for their environment or much else really.
 

Minderwiz

Sadly, I fear that is most likely, though the chart I cast still passes Lilly's test for life, over the two charts the conclusion must be pessimistic. My chart was a follow up to yours - 'Where is Bird?'

On first sight my chart appears very optimistic with Bird's significator, Jupiter, being in exaltation in the first house. The first house here is mine as the querent. Bird is certainly not with me, so the placementmust mean something else. I have no direct involvement in the situation, so I turned the chart to have the sixth house on the Ascendant. The chart now looks at the situation from his perspective and Jupiter is now placed in the eighth house of the turnd chart.

In your chart Bird's significator was placed in the eighth. The ruler of the eighth was Venus, which was placed exactly on the MC, which has particular significance for the Sun (Bird's significator) being its natural place.

In my turned chart, the Moon is Lord 8 and it applies to Venus in the turned first house - Bird's house -by opposition.

On it's own, my chart, at most might give a change of direction and only a mild hint of peril. Over both charts the eighth house is prominent. The peril is emphasised and despite Lilly's test, the practicalities of the situation suggest a low chance of survival.

From your post above you don't see much hope in your latest chart. So we have three charts indicating peril and not indicating recovery.

I think if it was my pet I'd continue to hope and perhaps look but it would be in hope, not expectation :(
 

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Ronia

I'm sorry to intervene with my limited knowledge of horary but since the question was "where is Bird" I'd take Bird's significator to be the 7th and thus Saturn... Not willing to give any false hope, just thinking. I've read many times that a pet which we think of as a friend and especially a pet we turn to by name should be a 7th house thing... Then his 4th would be signified by Jupiter which is in Cancer and Cancer rules home, but also water (lake, pool, calm water?). Could it be that he/she is somewhere at a home which is unknown to the owner (Willowfox) given Moon (ruler of Cancer) in the 12th? Saturn is in the 5th which I wouldn't see as bad, rather somewhere where Bird is feeling OK, may be a child's place or found by a child/children or near a school... a theatre, something related to the 5th and/or Libra? Saturn is in Mars's rulership and Mars is on the IC which makes me think again Bird (Saturn) is in the home of Mars... (I realize there is a more negative interpretation of this placement as well). A male child? A sporting events place? School gym or playground? Hunting grounds? What I see is that Bird's ruler of the 8th (Sun) is applying for a conjunction with Saturn, so may be Willowfox should keep searching before this happens.

Apologies for the rambling, just wondering if this could be a possible scenario.
 

Ronia

I also found this: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=748 and thought it could be that Bird is taken/stolen by someone if we take his significator to be in the 8th (I see it's for lost objects but still) and also because of the directions given and signified by the 8th.

P.S. I asked my own tools if Bird is still alive and the answer was double yes. I asked where s/he is and I get a distant and isolate place, may be higher from ground, most probably a nest, a tall tree with a nest or tall grass and hidden nest in there, I get storks' place (or other similar big birds) aka among grass and plants, near water or high above the ground, definitely plants around but there is a path too, small one, cut and cleared by man... May be near a harvesting spot, a field with some harvested plants or wheat field or similar but looks mostly like places around water basins where the tall grass and plants are cleared just before the water bank... this is just another option. I aksed if you'll find Bird and again, I got positive answer as of news, you'll receive information, sth will be revealed to you as of his wellbeing and location... This, of course, may mean any kind of information but still... I hope you find Bird soon, Willowfox!
 

willowfox

I also found this: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=748 and thought it could be that Bird is taken/stolen by someone if we take his significator to be in the 8th (I see it's for lost objects but still) and also because of the directions given and signified by the 8th.

P.S. I asked my own tools if Bird is still alive and the answer was double yes. I asked where s/he is and I get a distant and isolate place, may be higher from ground, most probably a nest, a tall tree with a nest or tall grass and hidden nest in there, I get storks' place (or other similar big birds) aka among grass and plants, near water or high above the ground, definitely plants around but there is a path too, small one, cut and cleared by man... May be near a harvesting spot, a field with some harvested plants or wheat field or similar but looks mostly like places around water basins where the tall grass and plants are cleared just before the water bank... this is just another option. I aksed if you'll find Bird and again, I got positive answer as of news, you'll receive information, sth will be revealed to you as of his wellbeing and location... This, of course, may mean any kind of information but still... I hope you find Bird soon, Willowfox!

The article in astrologyweekly also suggests the 6th house but in my first post I wondered if Bird would be considered as a close companion due to the fact I have no one else, only him, we eat from the same bowl at meal times, drink tea from the same cup, share grape juice together, share snacks etc, and during the day he justs wants to be standing on my shoulder. Only at night he wanted to be placed on a curtain rail or on top of a door to sleep. Therefore isn't the 7th house more appropriate here?
 

Minderwiz

Pets, which house?

If we go by the owner's view. it's possible to argue pets are:

Sixth house - a pet (small animals only)
Seventh house - a partner
Eleventh house - a friend
Third house - a sibling
Fifth house - a child
Fourth house - a treasure; or even
Tenth house - the key social role is ownership and care

All of these can be sincerely held by the person and indeed could be recognised by others who know them. I can therefore see why some Astrologers would argue for them.

The problem for me is that none of them describe a 'real' relationship between human and pet. Most of these relationships are two way - can someone you regard as a friend actually be a friend if they don't see you in the same light. We can't know for certain that the relationship is a 'genuine' one, if we can't know the pet's feelings.

It can be argued that the pet's feelings are immaterial, it is the feelings of the querent that matters but even between humans this can cause trouble for the Astrologer when the feelings are one sided. There's a good instance of this in a horary by Lee Lehman, where the querent saw the relationship as a long term partnership but the other party did not.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to use them, but it may not be effective to use them. Certainly if you open them up for use the possibilities multiply almost to the point where horary becomes useless. And what does the Astrologer do if the querent says 'The dog is like a son to me?' but from observation, the Astrologer feels that the dog is more a pet? Should the Astrologer use the fifth, which they don't believe to be the correct house or should they use the sixth? It's the job of the Astrologer to tease out the 'correct' house for them to use to give an effective reading ('correct' here is not an absolute but for the specific question')

Of the relationships listed above only two are ones that could clearly be said to apply, another is debatable but may be true on investigation. Those are:

Sixth house - a small animal
Fourth house - a treasure (though even that might be debated)

The one that could be argued is Tenth house - the person's defining social role - there might be a case for that if the person earns his or her living from the animal performing or is known in their society simply in terms of the animal and has no other social role.

Traditionally, the Astrologer would use sixth house and possibly the fourth house if they believed the animal was also the person's treasure (it doesn't have to have monetary value and it's a lot less of a subjective judgement than 'friend' or 'child').

In Willowfox's original chart, using the fourth doesn't alter matters much - direction changes to be more South than West - Mercury would be Lord 4 and is placed in Scorpio ninth, so the conclusion would be that he is 'far away' and Mercury is stationary in a fixed sign - so Bird is not moving. Worse still the Taurus Moon is applying to an opposition to Mercury, so unlike using the Sun, Lilly's test for life would be failed.

I did consider this when I looked at the chart but I preferred the slightly more optimistic reading using the usual significator of a pet.

Incidentally, Mercury is also Lord 7, so if Bird were a partner, the same conclusions would be reached. Lord 11 is Saturn, also placed in the eighth, but in Scorpio. Lord 5 is the Moon, giving a direction of North East. Lord 3 is Venus giving a direction of due South. Lord 10 is Jupiter, which was assigned to Willowfox, so we either use Venus on the MC (due South) or the Triplicity ruler for fire - the Sun.

As Willowfox is the one that has to do the searching and knows the area, he might feel one of the alternative directions is more appropriate and I don't think in this case we can in any way override his own instincts

It's a heartbreaking situation, I know I would continue looking but horary is not a powerful tool in cases of moving animals, nor for that matter can it lead to the rediscovery of stationary animals or things when their location is inaccessible.
 

Ronia

I don't know that much of horary, so I can only guess. I personally would use the 7th probably and end up wrong... But I thought if we use the 7th it does fit in terms of water and even the school where he was seen... Just a suggestion. I also think that the 8th can simply mean "loss" as this is the synonym of death in all divination systems and being placed in the 8th may simply point at the fact that Bird is lost to the owner at this point.

Still, Willowfox, I trust my own investigations with my own tools and I suggest you try to check around water, especially in hidden places, where nests could be found, even towards the river. Also, high, even higher than you think he can go. I'm sure he's still alive. I once had a similar situation with a cat I had: she ran away and despite the fact that she always repsonded to me before, she didn't make a sound for more than 10 days, I went out every night to walk around the neighbourhood and call her. In nearly two weeks she just appeared from under a house nearby which makes me think she's been there for quite a while and didn't respond juct because she didn't want to, she was of course hungry and dirty, etc. but fine otherwise. Now, with Bird I'd keep looking and ask even further away from your home because you'll get some information.
 

willowfox

Thinking about this some more, I would agree a dog or cat can go in the 6th house box but upon reflection Bird is indeed very "child" like, loves to play, can be very naughty deliberately, extremely inquisitive, and has actually "thrown" a tantrum on one occasion when I stopped him from climbing into a cupboard, he also has a human child-like temper, when he's annoyed he will fling things around or purposely start destroying things. If I were to leave him on the table for instance, he will quickly get angry and look for something to break, like tipping my cup over and rolling it off the table, then happily watching it smash on the ground. He knows what he is doing. So could the house 5th be used and what does it change? Bird is not a pet, he's a character.