Well I must admit a couple of your phrases raised my hackles but I took it that you had no intention to insult, so I didn't say anything. Now I don't see event driven Astrology as in some way inferior to a psychological approach, or more shallow. Nor do I see people wanting to have an idea of what actual events are going to happen as simply 'fortune telling'. I've seen enough depth of philosophy in, for example, Hellenistic Astrology, to know that it's exploration is good for the 'soul'. But I repeat, I realised you had no intention to be derogatory and that sometimes what we say isn't what we meant to say
Ronia is certainly combative but then if ideas are not put to the test we would not learn much.
But why should she accept the psychological approach as the only valid way of looking at Neptune et all in particular or Astrology in general? I certainly don't though Liz Greene, Howard Saportas and Stephen Arroyo are still amongst my favourite astrologers and I owe them all a great debt in helping me back into Astrology. There are many other valid approaches to Astrology, indeed one thing I'd love to see is a Jyotish astrologer join us. And yes, they do challenge each other or put emphasis on different 'aspects' of the nature of Astrology.
One can still see value to Neptune et al, without accepting the theories of Jung et al and see them in a different way, ignorance of the psychological approach is not equivalent to ignorance of Astrology
. That may well lead to a desire to have others explain their position if different from ours. Enthusiasm can sometimes seem challenging, but from experience I much prefer students who challenge my views than those who just act in a receptive manner. Even though I'm retired I still love teaching. However that means exposing yourself to what may seem on the surface challenges to your very being. They are not, they are simply the desire to take nothing for granted.
I still hope that at some stage you would be willing to look through a chart with me - not in any antagonistic or combative way but as a means to compare approaches and indeed to help others learn. And I certainly would value Dave's input and Ronia's too. I've learned that underneath that rather forthright exterior is a sharp mind. She challenges me quite often, sometimes with good reason but I enjoy the challenge and I hope I can still rise to it
Take care but do think about doing a mutual chart reading.
Hi Minderwitz,
ok, hehe, now you provoked me
Maybe it is good that I clear this some more - I never said that psychological approach is the only one to consider - in fact, I clearly said I appreciate other branches of astrology and I may even consider consulting an astrologer from a different field if so needed! I am very well aware of the complexity of horary astrology for instance and all the information that we can gain through it - and I was always very much appreciating your technique that you generously demonstrate here on the forum. Once you answered one of my questions and I was deeply touched and impressed by the answer. So, I need to be clear - I am not putting psychological approach 'above' others, even though it is a journey that many people won't undertake, since it is arduous and consuming (clients need quite a few sessions, for instance, to open the doors into their psyche and start to become aware of things).
In fact, it was Ronia first show showed a bit of derogatory attitude, saying that people 'need other things and not psychological explorations', so I want to be clear on that as well!
I do appreciate different approaches - but I don't appreciate narrowmindedness and arrogance where the person with obvious lack of knowledge pretends to make 'arguments'. To challenge someone, you need to have knowledge and experience on the same level, and Ronia doesn't. Simply rejecting and rebuffing doesn't mean 'to challenge'. When a person starts to demontrate this kind of attitude, she loses credibility, since an aggressive approach usually just hides insecurity and of course strong ego. I am not interested in that.
And also, I find Ronia's tone and attitude too agressive for my taste, even if she has something valid to say. I don't want to be dragged into this kind of energy.
Not to mention the alchemical approach towards the 'Fishes' and the ocean, the 'high' and 'low' that we find in Pisces for instance, the soul (one Fish) and spirit (the other Fish) hiding in this archetype, and of course the main collective split between body and soul, between this world and the world beyond that consumed the era of Pisces-Neptune and Christianity.
Psychological approach is not just about some cute stories. It is extremely complex. But it is not pinpoint exact, so arguments that 'Neptune transit doesn't always act the same way', are just too silly. We cannot predict the development of the human psyche and on what level it will manifest. Also, we cannot say to the person what will happen - we can only HELP the person to discover for him or herself what is going on. It is a tool of self-discovery.
I don't pretend to know much about horary astrology, so I won't argue with anyone there - and the same goes for psychological approach.
It is not just about Neptune, Ronia didn't show much understanding with Pluto neither - rejecting my notions without any serious argument, just out of ego. How can I take her seriously then? Any serious astrologer with knowledge in psychological approach will certainly be aware of all the mother-father aspects in the outer planets, that Pluto is not just Hades, but concerns Demeter as well, the overprotective mother and the myth of Chora, her virgin daughter, being raped and becoming Persephone, which in fact is an archetypical story that can be observed daily and is the MAIN issue with Pluto! Pluto is a lot about 'rape'. And it carries a strong, deep aspect of mother energy - the dangerous, swallowing, overbearing mother that is a clear notion in psyhoanalitical findings. And if we see Pluto or Scorpio, there are almost certain mother issues. Just we need to dig them out. Pluto is many times unseen, Hades was wearing a helmet of invisibility, so Pluto can lay still and dormant for years, while things 'cook' in the unconscious.
If I get a strong plutonian client, I can be sure that we will need many sessions to even start digging. People are usually just totally burried and swallowed, 'raped', forced into being something that they are not, with Pluto. They need to dig themselves out. So Pluto is THE psychoanalitical planet, but it moves slowly. It is extremely complex, so saying - 'Pluto is not a mother to me', as Ronia did, is not 'challenging', but simply showing lack of knowledge.
Then the so called 'argument' that similar attributes are assigned to the outer planets - yes, of course they are! Things overlap, as everything in life does. If something so basic is not clear... Pluto is rape - then again, Uranus is about rape as well! Uranus was raping Gaia, that is, the sky (the ideal) was raping earth (our everyday existence). Uranus many times gets manifested this way, that we force ourselves to become superhuman, thus 'raping ourselves' or others, being cruel and heartless. Uranus shows no mercy towards basic human needs, he forces itself on Gaia-the earth.
But of course, Uranus and Pluto are not just about rape, this is only one aspect. Yes, it is complex and things overlap, carrying different tones. Which aspect will manifest and how? WE DON'T KNOW. We don't pretend to know! That is why we EXPLORE. We analyze, we
ask the person, we get to know their story, their background. As psychological astrologers we only hint and suggest.
I have seen Pluto as actual rape in the family. But of course, this is just one extreme example. I will not go to the client and say, see you have got Pluto here, so – was your papa very friendly with you? I mean – we are walking into the intimate terriotry of the individual's psyche, so we are just
assisting the person to put the pieces together by him or herself. And that only if and when the person is READY. In psychological approach, each chart carries a warning sign: THREAD CAREFULLY! Because you don't know what you are going to encounter, on what level and what is the level of the person's readiness to see and recognize all that lies within.
So if someone tries to 'compartmentalize' such experiences, wanting to give a clear, mathematical aspect to the planets, it just shows lack of understanding of this field. This is why in the debate with Ronia there are no 'challenges' but simply serious lack of understading and knowledge of what the psychological astrology is all about.
There are many stories and myths connected with each of the planets - Uranus/Saturn castration myth, overbearing father, found in Uranus, victimized mother and sacrifice/scape goating found in Neptune, the role of redeemer of the family we may play with Neptune/Pisces not to mention psychological break downs (I have seen seriously unstable mothers when Neptune is on MC for instance, or alchooholic fathers with Neptune in 4th house)...etc, etc. But when a person simply rebuffs all the ideas instantly - out of clear lack of knowledge and experience - she is not 'challenging' anything, but simply wanting to prove herself and argue, without nay grounds.
This just destroys the energy. If we want to talk about psychological approach, the other person needs to have the adequate knowledge and be open-minded.
But by all means, I appreciate all other approaches! Just I am not so arrogant to pretend to know something about them and 'argue' just to argue
An intelligent person knows her limits.
If some debate opens, I may participate, but only to share and only to respond to a nice and intelligent level of debate.
carry on the good work, I need to say that I appreciate your efforts here immensely!
kind regards
