The Ladies' Coleman Smith

SarahJoy

It is true that I have no artistic skill, which is why I'm asking advice regarding color schemes or themes. Plus, I want this project to be bigger than myself. If I wanted to make a deck that was only pleasing to myself, then that's what I would do without asking anyone else's opinion. I would like to create a deck that other people with the same preferences will find useful.

To be blunt,

It feels like you want to create a Tarot deck, but you don't have a specific approach (artistic or thematic), and you're looking to us to fill in the blanks for you. You seem to want to use RWS artwork, which is legally owned by USGames, if you're in the U.S.

The most successful independently-produced decks were created by people with a specific personal vision, both in terms of theme and artistic style. I would suggest you not ask us what the deck should look like; instead, decide what you think the deck should look like.

Also, if you truly have no artistic skill, then spend a good amount of time building that skill set. Gimp is free, as are tutorials on Youtube, if you want to go the digital route. There's also lots of great tutorials for traditional mediums like charcoal and watercolor.

Finally, I'd take a good hard look at USGames' copyright of the original artwork. They own the copyright and will protect it legally -- I wouldn't touch it.
 

mabcosmic

I've had the flu the last couple of days, but I finally got around to working on a newer version of "The Sun" card. This version is closer to what I have in mind:

http://mabcosmic.blogspot.com/2016/05/the-sun-vs2.html

BEFORE POSTING FEEDBACK:

1. Keep in mind that my resources are limited. I'm limiting myself to public domain textures and the resources I am using don't have the exact shades and colors I'd like to use.

2. This project was supposed to be collaborative, meaning that I was hoping to work with like minded posters toward creating a Major Arcana deck. Even if that doesn't happen, I'm still interested in seeing what other people want to see with regards to colors and themes. Links to specific textures and public domain resources would also be welcome.

3. If you aren't interested in feminine decks per se, I am still interested in whether you are interested in texture-themed decks (as opposed to flat color) that may be masculine or neutral in nature.

4. This project is supposed to be FUN and POSITIVE, artsy and creative. My end goal is to put the 22 Major Arcana on my blog as a PDF file for people to print at home. I will post credit to Aeclectic posters and public domain artists that help make the project possible.

Overall, I am interested in constructive and creative input that is helpful to make progress for the deck.
 

mabcosmic

The most successful independently-produced decks were created by people with a specific personal vision, both in terms of theme and artistic style. I would suggest you not ask us what the deck should look like; instead, decide what you think the deck should look like.

Thanks for pointing this out to me.

Although, I've already specifically stated several times that this isn't a professional project. It's supposed to be a fun, collaborative project.

I'm going to respectfully ask ***all posters*** that if you're going to respond to what I say, please be aware of what I've said so I don't have to keep repeating myself.

Thanks!
 

MaeWasteland


Sorry you've been ill! Okay, so, the card:

Things I like - 1/ love the deep, velvety red on the banner thingy the baby's holding. 2/ Really like the texture you've used on the horse - it definitely seems to make the horse seem more 'alive'. 3/ The background for the sky is very nice, although I'd be interested if there's a reason for it being so dark and 'night sky' like, given it's the Sun card? 4/ Like the green of the flowers' stalks/leaves, again is there a reason you've changed them from sunflowers to giant daisies?

Things I'm less keen on - 1/ the texture on the baby, again, sorry! It looks better than the marble, IMO, because as gregory (??) mentioned, that just made me think 'yikes, that must weigh a ton, poor horse!' but it still looks a little bit... skin-diseasey. Textured skin is always iffy - even some of the skin tones in some published versions of the RWS deck look kinda skin-diseasey because they've got this red 'overlay' of hatching on top of the base colour (which is presumably intended to make them look less flat). 2/ Unsure about the changes I mentioned being confused by above, the night sky/giant daisies things. If there's logic behind those changes, I'd love to know! (Not having a go at you, I'm just wondering.)

Re copyright, I suspect even if you aren't offering them for sale, if you make your project publicly available and encourage people to print things off, you could potentially get in trouble - I doubt you'd actually get sued, but you might get a stern telling off at least. The RWS drawings are not public domain, you clearly understand why that matters for the textures you're using, well, same thing applies to the line art.
 

Alta

Moderator note:

Hi all,

Honestly I am not certain about what if anything needs to be done.

The OP apparently does not care about copyright, it has been brought up a couple of times so let's leave it at that and not keep repeating. I think mabcosmic now realizes that his project will violate USG copyright unless it stays a personal deck.

I will say as it is a personal project, then it should stay personal, not be made available for download. And if you do that, then you will have to leave Aeclectic Tarot out of the credits as the owner would not wish to be legally liable.

If members wish to critique the cards, it sounds like a fun project to discuss.

Alta
Moderator
 

mabcosmic

Hello Mae :)

Thanks for your feedback!

Textured skin is always iffy - even some of the skin tones in some published versions of the RWS deck look kinda skin-diseasey because they've got this red 'overlay' of hatching on top of the base colour (which is presumably intended to make them look less flat).

Yes, today was a bit difficult in deciding how to do the kid again. I considered doing a light purple/lavendar flood fill as opposed to the floral fabric, but I didn't know if that would clash with the rest of the textured card?

2/ Unsure about the changes I mentioned being confused by above, the night sky/giant daisies things. If there's logic behind those changes, I'd love to know! (Not having a go at you, I'm just wondering.)

The dark background was my first choice, but I put the lighter background on the first card to try to get close to the original RW colors for comparison.

Plus people were asking for the dark and mystical part of the card I was talking about.

I'd like to do a color scheme similar to the Illuminated Tarot, but I'm finding that's a lot easier said than done.

Re copyright, I suspect even if you aren't offering them for sale, if you make your project publicly available and encourage people to print things off, you could potentially get in trouble - I doubt you'd actually get sued, but you might get a stern telling off at least. The RWS drawings are not public domain, you clearly understand why that matters for the textures you're using, well, same thing applies to the line art.

Here is my issue with the line art: how can they own the outlines of a 1909 deck that is in the public domain? (I'm not a lawyer, just thinking out loud). There are many many other recolored versions of the RW available that US Games hasn't bothered with. I'm not sure why *this deck* would be so different.

Plus I have made some minor changes to the line art for technical processes (creating pixel bridges so flood fill transparency stays put in certain areas).

I'm more than happy to talk to US Games if they contact me through this site or my blog.
 

mabcosmic

Hi all,

Honestly I am not certain about what if anything needs to be done.

The OP apparently does not care about copyright, it has been brought up a couple of times so let's leave it at that and not keep repeating. I think mabcosmic now realizes that his project will violate USG copyright unless it stays a personal deck.

I will say as it is a personal project, then it should stay personal, not be made available for download. And if you do that, then you will have to leave Aeclectic Tarot out of the credits as the owner would not wish to be legally liable.

If members wish to critique the cards, it sounds like a fun project to discuss.

Alta
Moderator


Alta, if I didn't care about copyright, then I wouldn't be sticking to public domain textures or using only the line art of the RW which pre-dates US Games deck published in the 1970s. Saying I don't care about copyright is both inaccurate and a personal jab that's not necessary.

The credits that would be posted would be the usernames of other collaborators (with their permission). Not Aeclectic Tarot.

I would also like to see what other Tarot Creation thread has received this much hostility and grief for wanting to create a simple deck of cards.

"Critiquing the deck" and open mockery are two totally different things. One is fair, another is designed to destroy and humiliate. I guess I'll have to wait and see if the boundary between the two will be respected.
 

Nemia

(ETA: I wrote that before your last response. I don't want to humiliate you but I do react negatively to a "fun project" that IMHO shows disrespect to tarot AND art, both of them dear to my heart).

Well, it seems to me that you don't really know what you want. It's possible to fill the line art of the RWS with feminine textile patterns (Celia Birtwell, William Morris, whatever you like) and get the effect of a flat, vibrant textile collage. That would impose this aesthetic on every card, even the Hierophant or Emperor where IMO it doesn't suit at all, but it's possible. There are decks who have this playful-"feminine" vibe (I see "feminine" and "masculine" not as immutable anyway).

A lovely "flat" tarot is the construction paper tarot - the artist tore colourful papers and made collages. By hand. Looks great (although arguably it doesn't add to the tarot content-wise).

But if you want to go for textures, IMO that's something totally different from a visual-language point of view. Textures means 3dimensional. Taking textures from a computer program and filling line drawings made by a artist 100 years ago with them by clicking on a button is NOT art and is NOT creative. It's mechanical and easy and the result is and cannot be anything but poor. Where's the fun in that? Children nowadays do everything by clicking on a button and don't learn to deal with fine manual coordination challenges any more, like drawing lines, filling fields of colour etc.

Art is something people LEARN. Either in a structured framework or by years of sitting on their backside. Computer programs look easy to use but people who use them as artistic tool work very hard. They have a vision and know how to translate it.

I'm sorry but I'm not at all surprised that your vision doesn't come alive on the screen just like that. It doesn't work that way. I can dream of singing the Queen of Night's aria by Mozart better than anyone but I didn't learn opera singing so that's impossible. I didn't learn classical dance so I can't dance the Dying Swan. I can't climb the Anapurna, I can't drive a racing car. If I want to improve on anyone's performance, I have to learn the basics first.

In the visual arts, people think they can take shortcuts. The computer will do it. But it won't.

If you want to translate some inner vision of what you think is feminine into images that others can see and relate to - then go and learn visual communication, art, illustration. Before "improving" the beloved and trusted images of an artist like Colman Smith who honed her skills for years, try to express something of your own.

People have done that. Even with little artistic training - Rachel Pollack's tarot is not strong from a technical-artistic point of view, but it's filled with her insights about tarot and that makes it interesting.

Sometimes an amateur-like approach can bring more powerful results than a slick commercial graphic artists (Lo Scarabeo produced some decks with comic artists that lack depth IMO). But even an amateur has to know some basic things about the "translation" process necessary to bring a concept alive visually.

Tarot archetypes are quite a big deal. Why not start with three Majors that are really close to your heart, and make them yours? Collages, either from papers and pictures you collect, or on the computer?

I'm aware that this is not what you want to hear. But that's what I think.
 

mabcosmic

I'm going to post one last thing with regard to the line drawings that I am using for this project, which is that Sacred-Texts has supplied black and white line drawings of the Rider-Waite for over a decade now:

http://sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/index.htm

If the line drawings were a problem, then I'm sure US Games would have had grounds to take down the page by now. Since they haven't, it is not unreasonable for the average person to draw the conclusion that they can use the line drawings for their own Tarot work.

However, I'm going to contact them anyway and see what they have to say about it. I will post again about this if they reply.